Shotokan - Dead End

[jion]

There are many great reponses...I don't know where to start, too many great ideas. It's a pity I'm not in the US - since many of you are - most of these posts happened whilst I was in bed

Let me point out that kyokushin is NOT a shotokan offshoot

I know, but Mas Oyama was unsatisfied with the fighting aspect of Shotokan, he was as far as I remember a nidan and trained under Funakoshi. Shotokan is however a major influence on Kyokushin. I have nothing but respect for Kyokushin, even though my encounter with Mas Oyama not so good.

I would recommend you read a book by Stephen Covey called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People

Funny you mention that, I was reading it last night! I also recommend The Psychology Of Achievement if you're interested in self-help books.

Your cup is full

Not really, my cup is empty. 20 years of one-sided training and I'm left asking myself "what are all these kata techniques we're not using?". The only person responsible for this is me, and I'm not blaming anyone for my late awakening. I'm basically asking people here, who might be or have been in the same position, how can we get more out of Shotokan?

...in our dojo we do a lot of bag work. We also go alot faster and further in kumite than it seems what you are describing.

Brilliant! Sounds like your club can think out of the box a little more than the ones I've been to. I've trained in Australia, Sweden and my current club is here in Germany. Although it's the best one I've been to, I wish they would break more then the "neo-traditionalist Shotokan/Karate" and focus more on the traditional karate. Shotokan for me is becoming more and more a term for watered down version of traditional karate.

What grappling techniques have you found? Patrick McCarthy found 72 grappling techniques in certain Okinawan kata. He reversed engineered them, dug them out of the past, and challenged Karate to rethink itself. Wouldn't it be great if Shotokan could manage a feat like that?

Maybe you just need to find a new instructor who has more depth in the art

I'm always looking for new perspectives and angles. On the 1st October I'll be at a Goju-Ryu/Uchi-Ryu seminar, 29th Nov there's a Patrick McCarthy seminar (which basically made me rethink Shotokan, again).

I'd say 90% of the things you are complaining of in Shotokan you will see less or none of in Shorin-ryu.

Yes, I guess you're right. I'm currently going to every seminar outside of Shotokan that I can. My goal is to add value to Shotokan, so when I teach it I can still call it Shotokan, and not MyStyle-Ryu.

The way I see it is. In the beginning there was karate. Masters mixed and learnt techniques. Eventually there was mass interest in the art. To make it reach the masses it needed to be changed. To appeal to the japanese and okinawans on a grand scale, and to go with the time, karate training changed to what it is now. That goes for many styles of karate. That vehicle was good, it taught and introduced basic karate to many people. But there must be something beyond that. Karate to me is an umbrella term for all styles ranging from Goju-Ryu to Kyokushin to XYZ. Modern karate training is like primary and high school. When you pass through that stage, you will be left with yourself. It took me 20 years to realise that Shotokan as it is taught today, on a mass scale, is a dead end for my karate development. Its use as an introduction to karate is great.

Now it just reminds me of Henry Ford's idea of mass production. Karate robots in lines, with people unwilling to look outside and push it a little. They'd rather just continue to practise it and give the responsible over to someone else. Every club I've been to puts "self-defense" on its flyers when recruiting new people. Yet, where is it?

(my thoughts are flying, hopefully there my point is coming across)

[JimmyNewton]

I think you are generalizing a lot of dojos and it doesn't seem like a legitimate statement. Myabe you should find another school that emphasizes more on kuymite, harder contact sparring, etc. I practice Okinawan Karate and we do bag work, submissions, locks, etc.

it boils down to your instructor and school. and as far as those lack of confidence statements you made, i think you should speak for yourself instead of generalizing.

[JimmyNewton]

another good book is Bunkai Jutsu from ian abernathy.

Lots of kata techniques and bunkia you might not have thought about.

do a search on it. its worth the 10-15 bucks you'll drop on it

[jion]

Thank you for the Ian Abernathy tip. It looks very interesting, maybe that could help me take it to a new level.

I recommend anyone interested in this topic to check out the articles over at Iain's site

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.asp

They have been evolutionary as well as revolutionary to me.

[SenseiMike]

It seems likely to me that Shotokan and Karate in general focus on other things (personal development, tradition, etc.) ahead of self defense.

That's what you said.

Personal development and "tradition" are not focused on ahead of self-defense, at least not in old school Okinawan karate. Maybe in modern karate, especially Japanese karate (some). The "tradition" you speak of...what do you mean by that? If you mean "kata", then I would argue that is still the study of self-defense. If you mean "meditation" and all that...that's not very traditional, at least not to karate.

Shorin Ryuu......

um, on an island in the 1600's full of zen buddists, I'd say that meditation is the Most traditional aspect of karate.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Shorin Ryuu......

um, on an island in the 1600's full of zen buddists, I'd say that meditation is the Most traditional aspect of karate.

What? Where did you hear that? Buddhism wasn't a major factor in shaping Okinawan culture like it was for Japan. Okinawa's culture was (is changing now) far more Chinese than it ever was Japanese.

[Skeptic 2004]

um, on an island in the 1600's full of zen buddists, I'd say that meditation is the Most traditional aspect of karate.

I'm going to disagree with you. In Okinawa, the most able practicioners (at least the ones we know about) of karate came from or rose to the upper crust of the class system there and raised/trained their male children in accordance of the principles of bun bu ryoudo - culture, war, and calligraphy. Bu - the part of the child's life that focused on karate or some other war art did not bother with the pretenses of philosophy or meditation; the child was expected to learn these things from his study of the Confucian classics (Bun) and his mastery of calligraphy (Ryoudo). Karate training was about karate and nothing else. Seeing how kata was the mainstay of karate training in those days in order to learn, preserve, and transmit techniques, kata is the only vestage of tradition there is in "traditional" karate.

Whew. (*sighs*)

Okay, as far as to your problem, Jion, I would probably say something appropriately cliche and trite, such as "There are many paths up the mountain" but you're going to have to make your own decision based on your own needs and your own desires for your development and training. One thing my instructor harps on is to never sacrifice your independence; if you want to go learn something else from someone else and incorporate it into your Shotokan, do so. Don't let your fealty to some organization get in the way of your development. I say "your" Shotokan because that is exactly what it is. You said you didn't want to start your own "MeStyle Ryu", but the way you do Shotokan is not the way your instructor does Shotokan or the way anyone else does it. Your body, strengths, weaknesses, and personal preferences are all different from his/hers. In a way you're already doing a "MeStyle Ryu." Take ownership of your karate and do what you want to do.

Don't allow broad, sweeping generalization of styles deter you from giving them a try - if I had believed all the crap I'd heard about traditional karate before I actually gave Shorin-Ryu a try, I'd still probably be doing the crap martial art I was doing before - and pay no attention to worn platitudes such as "empty the cup" designed to tranquilize you and kill critical thinking if there's something you liked about what you were doing before that you want to retain. I agree with 24fightingchickens in that you should not let anyone (including your instructor...or people on these forums) control your decisions.

...yeah yeah...so I've basically said nothing...

Edited September 21, 2005 by Skeptic 2004

[y2_sub]

Let me point out that kyokushin is NOT a shotokan offshoot

I know, but Mas Oyama was unsatisfied with the fighting aspect of Shotokan, he was as far as I remember a nidan and trained under Funakoshi. Shotokan is however a major influence on Kyokushin.

He trained in shotokan for 5 years or so ,soooo I agree , shotokan has some influence on Kyokushin

even though my encounter with Mas Oyama not so good.

Could you please explain ??

[jion]

even though my encounter with Mas Oyama not so good.

Could you please explain ??

As a kid and teenager I was a big karate freak. I did Shotokan and a friend and his dad did Kyokushin. One day in 1988, there was a championship in Sydney, Australia. I think it was the First Commonwealth Knockdown Championship. A lot of big names were there. It was a great day, and the fighters were mind blowing (even back then I wondered why our sparring was 'weaker').

After the show we rushed to get some autographs from as many people as possible. And of course we wanted Mas Oyama's desperately. We lined up like everyone else and just as we got to the front of the line, Mas Oyama said that he wouldn't sign anymore, unless of course you had bought his book. We were very disappointed, even though John Taylor (if I recall his name) was very nice to us and felt a bit of sympathy. Mas Oyama saw us and still wouldn't give us an autograph.

I guess I can understand Oyama, but I if I was ever in his position and saw two 13 year olds standing there....

Nonetheless Mas Oyama is inspiring, and human. But that day he kind of lost some of that magic. So that was my encounter

One guy that was really nice was Kanazawa. Although I never got to meet him myself (and this wasn't at the Kyokushin championship, but at a seminar in Germany) a friend not only got some kind words and an autograph, but Kanazawa drew a little picture of Mt Fuji-yama, added a comment and signed it. It's funny how little gestures like that, even though they're unimportant, can be really cool.

[kzshin]

Aww, sux to heard that Mas Oyama didn't sign for you. If I was in your position I would've be disappoint too.