Shotokan - Dead End

[Taco101]

I am relatively new to Shotokan. But in our dojo we do a lot of bag work. We also go alot faster and further in kumite than it seems what you are describing.

I have a grappling background and see elements from that in several katas.

Others have said You get back what you put in. If your dojo is limiting this.....find another.

As far as feeling apprehension and fear before and during an altercation? Welcome to the human race. We all feel fear....but doing what is required in spite of the fear is what gets us through.

[kivikala]

Let's put more into Shotokan, ...

Your cup is full.

[dbrillha]

Shorin Ryuu wrote:

You may want to take out the "karate in general" part of that statement. Certainly it imay be traditional for Shotokan to do that (I'm not saying they don't focus on self-defense), but not necessarily for karate in general.

Just my opinion based on what I've seen of karate in general and other arts, I meant no offense. But surely you'd have to admit an art like Krav Maga has more of a self defense focus than any Karate style. I'm not saying Karate teachs no self defense, just that it spends a fair amount of time on things that aren't self defense.

[Shorin Ryuu]

It seems likely to me that Shotokan and Karate in general focus on other things (personal development, tradition, etc.) ahead of self defense.

That's what you said.

Personal development and "tradition" are not focused on ahead of self-defense, at least not in old school Okinawan karate. Maybe in modern karate, especially Japanese karate (some). The "tradition" you speak of...what do you mean by that? If you mean "kata", then I would argue that is still the study of self-defense. If you mean "meditation" and all that...that's not very traditional, at least not to karate.

[P.A.L]

i've been like you , i started with shotokan i loved it when i was a kid. then i started TKD for sparing then i started shito ryu(shindo jenin ryu) mean while i was doing shorin-ryu , finally i felt shorinryu is the most natural fighting style among them, so i kept it but i still cross train with Judo,Bjj and others , about a year ago i got into family styles of okinawan karate like white crane and i was hooked, so now a days white crane and shorin ryu is my main style i still do sanchin for breathing techniques or Anan for heck of it but no more Tekies or heians for me. i strongly suggest you to see a traditional okinawan style, i never forget the first day in white crane dojo i only could stand one shin kick to my shin and i was on the floor , in less than a year just because of small improvment in conditioning i can go shin to shin with my sensei for at least 1 mintues before i run away, same with forearm conditioning. if one day you got a chance to come over here let me know.

[24fightingchickens]

I've reached the unsatisfied stage that I bet a lot of Shotokan karateka get to..

Yes, a lot of us do get to that stage. I reached it around the 20 year mark as well. Shotokan is a sport. It is not a self-defense course, it is not training in military techniques, nor is it a practical fighting method. It is a sport. You learn to perform pretty kata, and you learn to perform tag sparring.

My experience is very similar - even after having done a couple of years in Japan training - I get the impression that what I mastered was like sport fencing and performance art. And of course the thing I mastered more than anything else was practicing karate, rather than using it.

I'm not sure you will find the solution in another martial art. Part of what is annoying about martial arts practice for a lot of people desiring a practical approach is that you do various preparatory drills, but since you cannot injure people, everything really ends up being a bunch of speculation, including your skills, until that one moment in your life when you finally have someone try to jump you, and it works - or doesn't - depending on the thousands of variables possible.

Now I am more interested in developing my skills around my needs, rather than learning a "style." You might be experiencing the same thing. The Japanese have a slogan for this called Shu, Ha, Ri - it means that at first you are obedient, then rebellious, and then at peace with having left behind what did not work (obedience, divergence, transcendance).

It is the natural maturation process, imo, that leads us to that point. When we get there, lots of folks scold us and try to get us to go back to obedience (where they are in their development) and stop making them uncomfortable by bad-mouthing the great masters or some other line. They will also throw platitudes at us such as "Empty your cup", which is code language for "Be controlled by me."

Instead of being controlled, I would recommend you read a book by Stephen Covey called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, and pay special attention to the section on maturity and the continuum he presents. He predicts your rebellious feelings and chalks it up to a maturing sense of independence. It becomes rebellious when unfostered.

Remember, the Okinawans used to learn whatever was lying around from whomever they felt like trading around with. The Chinese did this as well. It is only since the Japanese that we have had the military approach with all of the exclusive teacher-student loyalty included in the karate package.

[y2_sub]

There's no need to break from it like Kyokushin

Let me point out that kyokushin is NOT a shotokan offshoot

[dbrillha]

It seems likely to me that Shotokan and Karate in general focus on other things (personal development, tradition, etc.) ahead of self defense.

That's what you said.

Personal development and "tradition" are not focused on ahead of self-defense, at least not in old school Okinawan karate. Maybe in modern karate, especially Japanese karate (some). The "tradition" you speak of...what do you mean by that? If you mean "kata", then I would argue that is still the study of self-defense. If you mean "meditation" and all that...that's not very traditional, at least not to karate.

Well, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. By "tradition" I mean training with methods such as kata, 1/2/3 step sparring, point sparring, standing grappling, non-resisting opponents, etc. I understand you don't feel that way, and I mean no offense. I think I can understand where the original poster is coming from, and I think that studing the same (or similar) katas from the perspective of another Karate style isn't really going to fix what ails him. Only he can answer that of course.

[y2_sub]

Let's put more into Shotokan, ...

Your cup is full.

He can remove those unusefull & unrealistic techniques "from his cup" and replace them with more practical techniques -extracted from katas if you want - , or just stress the existing practical techniques such as punches , low kicks , shoto , etc.......

My advise to you is : put more power on your techniques , forget about those snap kicks and don't train for point sparring //* don't pull back your strikes * // , there is nothing wrong in exploring other martial systems such as JJJ or judo , you may learn a lot from other martial arts schools .

You can always visit kyokushin dojos and apply their training METHODS on your existing techniques

OSU

[shotochem]

Maybe we could just get rid of the cup all together.

Just get one big pot set it to a simmer and mix it up a bit.

IMO, there are no techniques that are useless. Its just a matter of how and when under what circumstatances they could be used.

Not every technique will work for everyone or ON everyone. That is why they invented guns.......