Shotokan - Dead End

[jion]

Lately I've been playing with the idea of joining a jujitsu club. I actually went and checked one out around the corner that seemed quite similiar to my karate club, i.e. nice people, a non-violent, learning environment. Although I have huge respect for JJ (JJJ in this case) I still couldn't drag myself away from Shotokan. To make a long story short...

The reason for checking out JJJ was I am also looking over to what our neighbours are doing more and more. I've reached the unsatisfied stage that I bet a lot of Shotokan karateka get to. The same drills and ineffective bunkai and pussyfooty kumite are dragging me down. It seems after almost 20 years of interest in Shotokan and martial arts in general (I've trained in Aikido, Togakure-Ryu Ninjutsu) I'm left wanting more. I bet a lot of people feel the same way I do....

Why is it when you encounter a dangerous situation on the street you still get that "I can't handle this, no way!" feeling? Despite being called a self-defense martial art, you feel as if you need more training? And I'm not talking Tank Abbott.

Why is it when you go to seminars, and you learn bunkai to various kata you think "That would never happen in real life"? Despite being told it does work

Why is it when you see BJJ you hope most people haven't heard of it so you won't get flattened if a situation like that comes up in real life? Despite everyone in the world respecting you for your BB?

Why is it that you believe in the "one punch, one kill" method, even though you've seen brawling at some club? Despite training for it every week

Why is it when some people in the club punch you, they stop 10 cm in front of your face because it too dangerous? Despite a high grade?

Why is there hardly any bag training? Why is there hardly any conditioning? Why is there no locks or grappling? Why do we only practise 5% of the techniques that are in the katas? And WHY oh WHY to people get awarded points for katas that look amazing but have zero to do with the original idea of kata?

Ladies and gentlemen, the time has come for me to find the truth. I admire people like Patrick McCarthy, that reverse-engineered katas and found hidden (!!??) locks and takedowns, as well as new implementations of the bogus JKA bunkai.

So to the actual purpose of this post....where do we go from here? Karate is a wellrounded martial art, or it's supposed to be, how do we go about bringing the fight back into kata, the realism into kumite, the power into Shotokan? Funakoshi and others simplified "Shotokan", now it's time to thank him for all he's done and move on and take Shotokan to the next level. There's no need to break from it like Kyokushin or others, or to start importing this technique from BJJ and this one from Kempo or that one from Arnis.

My question to you guys is, without breaking the tradition of shotokan or cross training, how can we get more mileage out of Shotokan, bring it to a new level?

-jion

P.S.: My first step is to beat the bags more than a boxer would. Shotokan as we know it today is striking, and I'll make my striking skills miles better than I could as a boxer.

[Jay]

you only get out what you put in

i dont think theres much worng with it although more self defence aspects and some more nunchuku training would be good

[jion]

you only get out what you put in

Very true comment, but how to you react when you're faster and stronger at kumite than everyone in the club, when they won't even though a decent "one punch, one kill" punch? Or how about when you have and idea in a kata that could give you more power and impact, but the motion or aesthetics are wrong?

There comes a point in training when the school class lining up in rows and copying the sensei is just too limiting. Everyone's kata is different, because everybody is slightly different.

I don't think tradition Shotokan was as rigid as today's, and its roots definitely weren't.

My post is not really a complaint, but a challenge. Let's do a year's class of shotokan without zenkutsu dachi/oi zuki/gedan barai. Let's dig out the weird, most obscure parts of a kata and do bag training with the technique. i.e. Gedan otoshi zuki or even teisho uke!

I read in a post recently some Kyokushin karateka said Shotokan karateka never use elbows or knees. Why not? They in the katas.

Let's put more into Shotokan, we want more to come out (Law of Return)

[jdhunts]

Maybe you just need to find a new instructor who has more depth in the art. You can also try finding a Shorin-ryu club and work with them. Karate-do originated in Okinawa, so learning more about the root system may help you.

Karate-do can be much more than just blocking and punching, but many times that is simply what the instructor learned.

Jeff

[dbrillha]

Since you have more that 20 years experiance, I bet you know a lot more about Shotokan than I do. That being said, I feel compelled to offer some input.

It seems that you are focused on self defense or fighting. It seems likely to me that Shotokan and Karate in general focus on other things (personal development, tradition, etc.) ahead of self defense. This isn't meant to be a knock on any traditional art - I like traditional arts myself.

I think you know that a lot of the techniques you are doing are sub-optimal for self defense, and the training methods aren't going to have the maximum impact for self defense.

If self defense is your main concern, then I think you need to seek out and practice a style that is better suited for this mindset.

I suppose that you could work on picking Shotokan techniques that look like they would work for self defense, and modify the other techniques to be more suited for self defense. On the other hand, a lot of people have done this sort of thing with all sorts of martial arts, and their combinations - so why re-envent the wheel?

[Jay]

ok if you feel you have got everything out of it i think you should find a new school i would recomend mine if you where in england

what grade are you by the way im guessing bout a nidan???? if you are try and find a specific black belt club or black belt lesson i enjoy it far more when i am training with people of a higher belt than me

[Sauzin]

Alright let me make a few quick opinion based points. First of all Shotokan has a tendency to become static, more focused on striking, and in many ways can depart from realistic fighting. This can happen in any style really but I've seen a lot of it in Shotokan.

So what do you do? Well you've got options.

Your first option is you could find another Shotokan instructor who might shed a different light on what you've been doing.

Your second option, as suggested previously is that you could look up Shorin-ryu which is Shotokan's root system. If you're looking for meaning in your kata and for the dynamic/practical roots of your system this is a good place to look. I'd say 90% of the things you are complaining of in Shotokan you will see less or none of in Shorin-ryu.

I practice Okinawan Kenpo which is very closely related to Shorin-ryu. We don't stop our punches 5 inches in front for safety. We practice bunkai from 100% of our kata, we leave nothing out. And it all translates to practical street combat. There is nothing in our art that doesn't directly relate to real world fighting. We have Sanchin and use that for conditioning. We are just as comfortable grappling as we are striking though we do have a preference for staying on our feet. We have very dynamic stance and hip work to accommodate this. And get this: We practice many of the same kata Shotokan does. We practice all the Nahanchi's (tekki's), the Pinan's (Hinians), Wansu, Kusanku, Gojushiho, sound familiar? Ours come from Shorin-ryu as yours does. So what's the difference? Maybe it's the instructor. Maybe it's the instructor's instructor. Maybe it goes far enough back to where it is the system. Were I you I would explore both these possibilities.

[AndrewGreen]

If you feel you need something new, do something new.

Different people have different objectives in there training. Some might want to do one style for 40 years, others need some variety.

I'd say it's the tradition of Cross training that has gotten lost. Back in ye olden days cross training was common. Most, if not all, of those old masters did it, that's why each one ended up with a different style.

I would also say that this:

My question to you guys is, without breaking the tradition of shotokan or cross training,

contradicts this:

how can we get more mileage out of Shotokan, bring it to a new level?

If you want more then what is there, look outside of that box. Things might fit together quite nicely depending on how you approach it.

But if you want to stick to traditional Shotokan, what you got is what is there (providing you got a good instructor...)

[SenseiMike]

the reason for checking out JJJ was I am also looking over to what our neighbours are doing more and more. I've reached the unsatisfied stage that I bet a lot of Shotokan karateka get to. The same drills and ineffective bunkai and pussyfooty kumite are dragging me down.

sounds to me like you just need a different school.

I find bunkai to be quite effective, but I guess that depends on the bunkai itself. And as far as kumite, well we routinely slam each other into a ground and pound at my school.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Why is there hardly any bag training? Why is there hardly any conditioning? Why is there no locks or grappling? Why do we only practise 5% of the techniques that are in the katas? And WHY oh WHY to people get awarded points for katas that look amazing but have zero to do with the original idea of kata?

I recommend you spend some time with good traditional Okinawan karateka just to see how they approach things. Most good schools would not be guilty of the things you are lamenting. You can easily incorporate fresh ideas back into your Shotokan to make your karate go where you want it to be.

It seems that you are focused on self defense or fighting. It seems likely to me that Shotokan and Karate in general focus on other things (personal development, tradition, etc.) ahead of self defense. This isn't meant to be a knock on any traditional art - I like traditional arts myself.

You may want to take out the "karate in general" part of that statement. Certainly it imay be traditional for Shotokan to do that (I'm not saying they don't focus on self-defense), but not necessarily for karate in general.