Do you regrip?

[Skeptic 2004]

One of the many, many things that I have been beaten over the head with recently is keeping a tight fist at all times for closed hand techniques while keeping all other muscles relaxed until impact. In order to ensure a tight fist, constant regripping becomes necessary.

Seeing how I had never heard of this before I started training with my current instructor, I thought it was a quirk peculiar to him. And then he showed me a 1965 video of Chosin Chibana performing Patsai Dai. Sure enough, before each closed hand technique, Chibana relaxed his hands and then regripped, in order to form and keep a tight fist. I gave my instructor the benefit of the doubt and thought that maybe it was just something peculiar to Chibana and that it had passed to my instructor who was passing it to me. And then I saw a 1965 video of Hironori Ohtsuka performing all the Wado Ryu kata. Sure enough, this guy regripped too! I saw video of Chokki Motobu's son, Chomei, performing kata, and he regripped (though not as often as Chibana and Ohtsuka)!

In short after the maybe unnecessary historical references, I want to know do any of you guys regrip to keep a tight fist? Do you keep a tight fist at all?

[y2_sub]

We have been taught to keep a tight fist all the times so I voted for the first option , however , sometimes while sparring you just can't keep your fist tight all the times , especially if you want to grab or to defend , therefor , sometiomes I only close my fist b4 the impact and that made me suffer from wrist injuries

[Jay]

loose arm till impact tight fist all of the time

[Shorin Ryuu]

That regripping thing was probably the first thing I noticed (other than the timing) in that video of you, Chun and Nakata doing the kihons you sent me. There certainly is some basis for credibility based on the videos you have seen of Chibana, Ohtsuka and Motobu's son.

I'll have to do some thinking about that (once I get off here and after I finish my papers like I should...). I've always done the really loose thing until impact.

What was his line of justification? Was it just if you misjudge timing or distance or something? I'm curious to hear it.

[Skeptic 2004]

Why regrip and keep a tight fist?

When you make your fist tight, the muscles in your forearm contract, pushing your knuckles forward, but also pulling your entire forearm back just a fraction of an inch or two toward your biceps. Try it. Hold your arm like you would in a punch, and then clench your fist.

If your fist is loose all the way until impact before it becomes tight, when the muscles contract, they pull your arm back just slightly. Thus, you're effectively cushioning the blow you're supposed to be delivering to your opponent by "pulling" your punch (whether you intended to or not). Any impact from that methodology will be concussive and lack penetration. If your fist is tight from the start, when you strike you're not holding back, and you will gain penetrating power with your punch.

This explanation really didn't make that much sense to me until I started punching heavy bag (100lb) and noticed the difference. Keeping a tight fist at all times, the bag bent around my hand when I hit, indicating penetration (the indentation of my fist in the bag was also neat to see). Keeping a loose fist and tightening upon impact the bag reacted as if I were wearing 8oz gloves (not to mention the bag didn't look like it had been hit).

Anywho, I'm actually quite surprised to see the number of people who have been taught to keep a fist tight at all times. Before I started training with my current instructor, I was always taught to keep it loose until impact and thought that a majority of the people would be the same way.

Keep it coming, and share your thoughts please!

[Shorin Ryuu]

Interesting. But, say, if you make a tight fist right before you impact and allow enough time for the forearm to complete its retraction, would that not have the same effect? I've hit the bag using a loose fist and still getting that "sink" you describe. I thought penetration dealt more with the "depth" your fist aimed for, the time you allowed your fist to sink, and the forward action (osae?) of your momentum. My rather uneducated opinion is that I think those three latter factors would have a greater effect on penetration than what you described.

How tight is "tight"? If the tightening of the fist causes so much retraction of the muscles, and that is countered by retracting the muscles beforehand, what implications does that have for your speed? I understand it isn't all about pure speed, and timing can be more important.

At any rate, I'm more of an open hand hitter anyway...

[Skeptic 2004]

How tight is tight? This is a problem that might be encountered: people may become so obsessed with tightening their fists that they tighten everything else (bicep, shoulders, the whole arm, etc.).

When you make a fist, check the muscles in your forearm. Those are the only ones that should be tight. When I mentioned that they pull toward your bicep, that doesn't imply that your bicep must also be contracted. If you feel your bicep contracted when making a fist, you're making it too tight. Everything but your fist and forearm should be loose. While timing is far more important, speed doesn't suffer when your forearms are contracted (having been nailed in the chest with both methodologies of tight fist first and then tight fist on impact, trust me...there is no difference in speed).

Back when I was getting used to the idea, I used to do exactly what you describe you're doing now. And by "used to" I mean I still do that; I've accepted the idea on a cognitive level, but I'm still trying to develop it physically. I'm currently suffering from some sort of weird hybrid punch where my fist is tight at the beginning (since I tell myself, "Keep a tight fist"), relaxes slightly in the middle (since I forget), and then tightens at the end (since I tell myself, "Tighten your fist, idiot!").

The rest of my argument is valid only if you suscribe to the idea of kime. If you subscribe to the concept of kime, your kime is off by contracting at that moment that you described. You (*sigh*...and I) suffer from what Nakata calls "fist kime." Proper kime involves the simultaneous contraction of all the proper muscles and ligaments needed to execute a technique; if you're contracting your fist independently of everything else during execution, your kime is broken at that point and focused on your fist, hence the term "fist kime." Fist kime throws your kime off for the rest of the technique. If your fist is contracted before you execute, it does not interfere with kime during execution.

Just to address issue of penetration, kime is an integral part of penetrating power, at least by Shorin methods (according to Chibana). Once again, this is only if you buy the idea of kime. Other factors include depth (as you've mentioned), hara, koshi, timing, and dropping the knuckles into the punch. Osae comes into play after execution when you're transitioning to the next technique and komu (crowd) your opponent...

I hope Shorin Ryuu and I are not monopolizing the discussion, and that we could hear from others...

[Shorin Ryuu]

Hmm...I'll have to think about all this some more.

Right now, I actually tighten more the forearm, the wrist, the back of the hand to the knuckles (in other words, not really emphasizing the tightness of the finger curl) more than I focus on keeping an extremely tight fist, now that I think about it (when did I start doing that?).

[ninjanurse]

I was always taught "relaxation-explosion" which involves the entire body and serves to channel kime. Of course, I am still working on it!

[24fightingchickens]

None of the above.

Many years ago I dumped the tightened fist. I have enough skill to hit with my knuckles without having a fist at all. My fingers can hang loose and I can still plant my knuckles.

The reason for this is that a fist has nothing to do with punching with a knuckle as the contact point. It is the muscles and tendons of the forearm that stabilize and align the knuckles. Having a clenched fist does not help anything but to keep your fingers from getting caught on something.