So how long does it take to learn a useful amount of BJJ?

[dbrillha]

I'm of the opinion that knowing some BJJ is probably a good idea for self defense. However, for someone that doesn't really have the time, inclination, or money to train in BJJ for a long time - how much would it take to get something really useful out of it?

I've read some stories on the Internet (all of which I'm sure I can believe, because everything on the Internet is automatically true) of folks studing BJJ for 3 or 4 months, and being able to easily beat wrestlers, Japanese Ju-jitsu practitioners, in grappling. Specifically, BJJ whitebelts with no prior training vs. Traditional Ju-Jitsu Brown and black belts. Judo seems to hold up pretty well against BJJ. I've also heard some accounts of folks who have had a couple months of BJJ lessons, and competed in BJJ tournaments and did pretty well.

From what I hear it is almost as if BJJ is "magic" and even though it might take you 10 years to get a black belt, you will have a usuable level of skill in only a couple of months. From reading about it, I have some idea of some of the basic BJJ techniques, and I understand about the training methods, which are very different from Japanese Ju-Jitsu, etc.

Myself, I have wrestled for a few years, and studied Japanese Ju-Jitsu for 2 yrs. off and on. I don't really think I could apply either to a self defense situation effectively. From what I hear though, a few months of BJJ would be able to do that. The way it sounds, BJJ is so superior to other grappling arts that it takes almost no time to get the basics to a usable level.

I'm not really that interested in BJJ for BJJ's sake. It's not that attractive an art to me - I'm really more interested in striking arts. However, I can't deny that there is a useful component to BJJ. One goal I have in mind would be to learn a minimal amount of BJJ, and "maintain" it, by occassional practice.

My question is, how long would you need to train in it to be able to use it reasonably well?

[rb]

I’d say within six to 12 months of training 6-10 hours a week you’d possess against resisting opponents:

Basic competency

-shoulder, wrist, arm locking techniques on the ground

-leg locking techniques

-hold downs, escapes, reversals

Laughable

-spine/neck cranks, body locks

-takedowns

-punching and kicking

-defense against punching, kicking, weapons

That is along the lines of commitment for BJJ as a primary art (unless you have time for privates and afternoon classes).

However, you are suggesting minimum effort with an attitude that is already resentful to this type of training. In time you might gain a few tricks here and there like some sloppy chokes and armbars, but no appreciable skill.

Why not build on your years of wrestling training? I see most of wrestling being able to carry over to useful self defense. Take the conditioning, takedowns, explosiveness, sharpen up your striking and you should be all right standing and downed.

[CagedWarrior]

You know, I'd say within 6 months of, say, 1.5 hr classes a week, one could know enough to make it useful. Now, you won't be armbarring opponents left and right and choking everyone out on the street, but you'll have a better idea of what to do on the ground- especially against untrained opponents. After all, it's not that hard to ground n' pound, you just have to know how to achieve and hold mount, then punch him. After that it only gets better.

[pineapple]

I would agree that in 6 months of training, you have some useable knowledge.

[SubGrappler]

I've read some stories on the Internet (all of which I'm sure I can believe, because everything on the Internet is automatically true) of folks studing BJJ for 3 or 4 months, and being able to easily beat wrestlers, Japanese Ju-jitsu practitioners, in grappling. Specifically, BJJ whitebelts with no prior training vs. Traditional Ju-Jitsu Brown and black belts. Judo seems to hold up pretty well against BJJ. I've also heard some accounts of folks who have had a couple months of BJJ lessons, and competed in BJJ tournaments and did pretty well.

People who study BJJ for 3 or 4 months and "easily" beat wrestlers are often doing this in BJJ. If a wrestler fought a BJJ fighter in wrestling, he'd do pretty well too. Wrestling doesnt have submissions, so to fight a submission fighters game when you've trained none puts you at a distinct disadvantage. To be specific, where most BJJ fighters find themselves beating their wrestling opponents is either from the guard position or when they manage to get on their opponents back. Both situations are a weak point for wrestlers.

At the risk of getting flamed, a Traditional Ju Jitsu black belt is generally about the same level of grappler as a decent white belt in BJJ. Judo does quite well, because they're almost the same thing as BJJ- quite simply they have opposing strategies and different rulesets, but many of the same techniques- they simply dont have the time invested on the ground to keep up with the higher belt levels (they've invested their time in learning how to throw their opponents on their heads)

From what I hear it is almost as if BJJ is "magic" and even though it might take you 10 years to get a black belt, you will have a usuable level of skill in only a couple of months.

Its not that BJJ or grappling is "magic" but rather that so many martial artists have ignored the ground phase of fighting to such an extreme that they know nothing about it. Think about it this way- moving around on two feet is a natrual thing, because we do it every day. Anyone who's anyone can make a fist and throw it at someone else, so even if they cant do it good, they can mount at least some kind of offense.

Movement on the ground, to the contrary, is NOT a natrual thing. How often do you practice moving about while you're on the ground? Of course the person who's only going to have 6 months experience is going to do exceptionally well if they go there with someone who has no experience whatsoever. Its like having a swim meet with two people- one you've been training for 6 months and another who's never even been in the water before.

The other aspect too is that most movements that seem natrual or common are often the wrong thing to do against a Jiu Jitsu fighter. In doing them, inexperienced people go from bad to worse.

Myself, I have wrestled for a few years, and studied Japanese Ju-Jitsu for 2 yrs. off and on. I don't really think I could apply either to a self defense situation effectively. From what I hear though, a few months of BJJ would be able to do that. The way it sounds, BJJ is so superior to other grappling arts that it takes almost no time to get the basics to a usable level.

Wrestling is a great grappling style to have experience in. It barely takes any practice to learn how to protect yourself until you enter the clinch where you can use those takedowns.

My question is, how long would you need to train in it to be able to use it reasonably well?

The general concensus is about 2 classes a week for about 6 months. People with that experience can usually mop up anyone else their own weight with no grappling experience.

[NotQuiteDead]

Wrestlers usually pick up submissions really fast. I've been training in submission wrestling for about a year and a half (off and on, although even when I wasn't attending classes I practiced with a guy who had been training as long as I had) and I wrestled for a couple months, but when I grappled a four-time state champion wrestler I only tapped him once, and he was on top the entire time. He even tapped me a few times using something somewhere between a neck crank and just squeezing my head and jaw as hard as he could. That was only his second or third submission lesson.

[AndrewGreen]

Stories get exagerated to sell the art

Nothing magical about it though, same thing goes for any art that trains "full contact" and live from day one.

3-4 months under a good boxing coach with well-coached sparring from day one will result in a better fighter then some traditional striking arts fighters, all depends on how they where trained.

Beating a wrestler - As was stated, this is because of rules. Wrestlers have some habits that play into BJJ guys hands, they often turn there back rather then be on it, got no idea what to do in someone's guard, etc. Let them ground and pound and you might see different results though.

[CagedWarrior]

E.g. Randy Couture....

[weaponless]

I'm not saying that you'll be a wizard in no time, or that you'll be able to control experienced martial artists after a couple months of training, but, people do have to realize that some people have natural instincts that can't necessarily be taught. What I mean is that some people just have natural jiu-jitsu instincts, even without any formal training.... now would they stand up to someone with formal training...perhaps not, but for a person with innate grapping instincts, a few months training jiu-jitsu could make them a very dangerous person, if that makes any sense to you. There are people who instinctively know what to do in situations without any training...which way their body needs to move from certain positions in order to escape, people who instinctively know when to go for a certain grap, when to transition to something else, when to apply pressure and when to go limp. For people like this, structuring their innate abilities with training can make them surprisingly profficient in a short time....Also, there are those with wrestling or Judo backgrounds that can often transition into jiu-jitsu much quicker than those without the background.

I'm not saying that jiu-jitsu is a style that is easy to learn or that it can be picked up easier than others...it takes work and dedication just like anything else... But some people almost seem born for it, if that makes sense. I'm not one of these people, but I am somewhere in between... I find jiu-jitsu techniques come to me easier and much more naturally than Karate does, and I am better at them than I am at Karate, which I train much much more at. I do have a wrestling background though, and I am very comfortable in a clinch, in close, or on the ground... Which was partly due to neccessity being 5'6" and 200 pounds, I have a body custom made for getting in close, lol. I know, I sound like a cannonball, but I'm not, I grew up playing football and power lifting, ect., so I'm not the short blob that I sound like I am.

But I do believe that someone with natural jiu-jitsu or wrestling instincts, given they have a good training partner or partners, and dilligence and hard work and humility, alot can be done in only a few months.... you won't be beating any Gracie's, but then again, I've heard a couple Gracie's say that their respective system was designed to get good fast, so, who's to say.... With hard work one man can accomplish more in 3 months than the nonchalant can in a year... and some people are just geared to certain styles more than others.... that's why I work my Karate ALOT more than my jiu-jitsu (and I work jiu-jitsu more than some that are dedicated solely to jiu-jitsu), I do more Karate as it doesn't come as natural to me, and it all comes down to how badly you want it.

[AndrewGreen]

Ok, let's just stop messing around and give him the answer already.

268 hours, 23 minutes and 12.26 seconds of mat time, anything less won't help, but after that you should be able to beat 98.4% of traditionally trained black belts.