Okinawan Kempo vs. American Kempo

[KempoTiger]

well as for chinese kenpo I know theres shaolin kenpo and kara-ho kenpo.also I've heard chinese kenpo called chuan-fa,but I don't know if that changes the style or not.Then for korean I can't say the names of any becuase this came from what I read in article in some magazine.One more thing I know that kenpo and kempo is the same thing,but what's with changing the pronounciation?

Kara-Ho Kenpo I believe is the name Professor Chow eventually settled on to call his style. Chu'an Fa means "Fist Law" and is the Chinese translation of the word "Kempo", and most schools that use that name I believe came from Ed Parker.

Kenpo is a common mispelling of Kempo, so no there is no difference between them. When the Japanese characters are romanized there's a rule about whether an M or an N is used before a P, and the technically correct spelling would be KEMPO.

[Goju_boi]

thank's for clearing it up

[Sauzin]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, back up here I think there's some confusion here. First of all James Mitose, a Hawaiian, studied in Kyushu (not Okinawa) where he studied under his uncle Choki Motobu who was an Okinawan. Motobu practiced under Kosanku Matasumora, but none of these guys had any ties to Okinawan Kenpo. Let me repeat, neither Motobu nor Matasumora practiced Okinwanan Kenpo nor were they associated with someone who taught someone that latter did. They all practiced Shuri-te (Shorin-ryu). Now yes, Okinwan Kenpo does have it's Shuri-te ties, but they don't come from these guys. They come from Chotoku Kyan and Seike Toma. In fact Okinawan Kenpo has a lot of different pedigrees but you can go up and down the family tree and you won't find anything that connects to Motobu.

If you merely compare what Ed Parker devised to Kosho Ryu Kempo there's little to no resemblance let alone comparing Kosho Ryu Kempo to Okinawan Kenpo. You won't find a single kata nor technique that we do that is the same.

Also people seem to be referring to any kind of Kenpo (which itself is a generic term for a martial art) that came out of Okinawa as Okinawan Kenpo. In fact Okinawan Kenpo is a very specific name given to arts originating from Nakimura Shigeru. Anything else may be Okinawan or it may be a Kenpo but it's not Okinawan Kenpo.

Again American Kenpo has no direct nor indirect ties to Nakimura Shirgeru what so ever.

As far as comparing the arts, well they're night and day. About as different as BJJ and TKD or JKD and Aikido. Which one is more street applicable, well I'm biased but I'll just say my vote is for Okinawan Kenpo.

[Goju_boi]

how closely related is okinawan kempo related to chinese martial arts?And if so what style of chinese martial arts?

[KempoTiger]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, back up here I think there's some confusion here. First of all James Mitose, a Hawaiian, studied in Kyushu (not Okinawa) where he studied under his uncle Choki Motobu who was an Okinawan. Motobu practiced under Kosanku Matasumora, but none of these guys had any ties to Okinawan Kenpo. Let me repeat, neither Motobu nor Matasumora practiced Okinwanan Kenpo nor were they associated with someone who taught someone that latter did. They all practiced Shuri-te (Shorin-ryu). Now yes, Okinwan Kenpo does have it's Shuri-te ties, but they don't come from these guys. They come from Chotoku Kyan and Seike Toma. In fact Okinawan Kenpo has a lot of different pedigrees but you can go up and down the family tree and you won't find anything that connects to Motobu.

I'm going to have to ask where you got this information from. Even direct students and friends of Mitose don't know the extent of his martial arts background. He's been a rather criticized yet enigmatic figure.

As far as Okinawan Kenpo, from what I know it is merely a hybrid style formulated by combining old family styles of martial arts with the knowledge that was introduced by Shaolin monks seeking refuge on island.

If you merely compare what Ed Parker devised to Kosho Ryu Kempo there's little to no resemblance let alone comparing Kosho Ryu Kempo to Okinawan Kenpo. You won't find a single kata nor technique that we do that is the same.

I find this hard to believe. Judging by what you say here, I'm under the assumption Okinawan Kenpo is one of the most exclusive and eccentric forms of martial arts ever devised.

The guiding theory behind at least my branch of Kempo is practicality. Taking what works from other systems, and embracing all theories as long as they're sound. Now either your system has no practical techniques at all in it, or you're exaggerating the differences between Okinawan Kempo and Chow/Parker/Cerio's.

When you say Kata's and techniques aren't the same, are you implying that they are vastly different in a sense of "night and day" as you said? Or do you simply mean that they are different? Because if that's the case, then I suppose my system and Villari's are "night and day."

[KempoTiger]

how closely related is okinawan kempo related to chinese martial arts?And if so what style of chinese martial arts?

I couldn't tell you specifically which, but you can bet it was some form of Kung Fu from the Shaolin temples...just depends which temple.

[Sauzin]

As far as Mitose's background, you are correct none of it is verifiable. Let me provide a couple of links though...

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/motobu.html

http://www.kosho-ryu.com/21st_grandmaster/Great-Grandmaster_James-Mitose.html

This one seems to be a bit of a fantasy...

http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/styles/kempokoshoryu.htm

And then there's this link which I think is the most informative...

http://www.kempokan.com/Glastonbury/ArticlesJamesMitose.html

While the articles assertion that every style of kenpo in north America can be traced to Mitose is definatively inaccurate (and I can prove it), his discussion on Mitose's claims are very enlightening.

As far as the origins of Okinawan Kenpo, they are well documented. To say they were a family art is not really very accurate since most of it was not passed on from father to son. To say it came from Sholin monks is more then a bit of a stretch. There was one monk who indirectly taught one of the teachers of a teacher of one of the students of Nakimura Shigeru. I don't call that much of a connection. If you really want to see what the origin of my branch of Okinawan Kenpo looks like try this link:

http://www.ikkf.org/lineage.html

I suppose saying that the differences are day and night would be a relative statement. For example kosho-ryu and Okinawan Kenpo are much more similar then say Okinawan Kenpo and line dancing. But Okinawan Kenpo bares more resemblance to Shorin-ryu, Isshin-ryu, Goju-ryu, or any Okinawn style then it does to Kosho-ryu or Kajukenbo. It bares even less resemblance to Kara-Ho Kenpo. And I swear by all that is holy that there are no two martial arts on this green earth that are more different then American Kenpo and Okinawan Kenpo.

[KempoTiger]

You know you really had me until this comment, "And I swear by all that is holy that there are no two martial arts on this green earth that are more different then American Kenpo and Okinawan Kenpo."

Let's see.....

Savate and western boxing?

TKD and Brazillian Jujitsu?

Pankration and Mantis Kung Fu?

Shall I go on? Honestly I'm not saying that you're wrong that the systems are different, but this whole attitude that Okinawan Kenpo is this vastly eccentric yet eclectic art while american Kempo and it's ilk are nothing more than wannabe knockoffs stealing the name really isn't selling me.

Thanks for the links though, I'll need them when revising my paper on the history of my dojo and system.

[Sauzin]

Let's see.....

Savate and western boxing?

TKD and Brazillian Jujitsu?

Pankration and Mantis Kung Fu?

Yea you've got the idea! About that different.

Shall I go on? Honestly I'm not saying that you're wrong that the systems are different, but this whole attitude that Okinawan Kenpo is this vastly eccentric yet eclectic art while american Kempo and it's ilk are nothing more than wannabe knockoffs stealing the name really isn't selling me.

OK, that's not what I'm trying to say.

"Kenpo" means "fist law" and is a generic Chinese/Japanes term for a martial art.

Anyone can use the name Kenpo for any art that has any origins in China. Just because two styles choose to use the term Kenpo in their name doesn't mean they are related in any other way then haveing a loose connection to China. By the way, I have yet to find a asian single art that doesn't have a loose connection to China. This includes Silat all the way to Tae kwon do. So saying the art has a connection to China isn't saying much.

I'm not saying that American Kenpo is a "wannabe knockoff". It doesn't even have that much of a connection to Okinawan Kenpo. It is it's own art. For better or worse it's completely different. Okinawan kenpo isn't a special "eccentric yet eclectic art". It's an Okinawan mutt. A collection of various karate-do from all over the island. It just happens not to be a collection of anything that formed American Kenpo. I'm sure this is just by chance but it is never the less true.

So let me repeat. American Kenpo is not stealing a name and they are not a knock off. What I practice isn't special and both arts simply are what they are...separately.

Now if you want to discuss differences in the technique, teaching, and style I could do that...for pages and pages. But you don't practice either art, so I'm curious as to why you don't just take my word for it.

[KempoTiger]

My point is that the body only moves in a certain number of ways, and only a fraction of those movements could be implemented into a fighting style.

Now I don't know about your system of Okinawan Kenpo, but I've already said that the sole foundation of my system is using what works, and even to an extent taking what works from other systems. Now while this may be an entirely different theory to training than your school, I can't hardly imagine that the way you are trained to fight is so vastly different that it is comparable to the differences between strict boxing and grappling styles. If we use practical techniques and your system teaches truly practical defense, then logically there must be some overlap in similarity between the two. As Jet Li said, we only have two legs and two arms, and there's only so many ways to fight with them. Sorry but the way I was taking your past comments was that Ken/mpo schools in the US were stealing the name from the true Okinawan predecessor.

I'd love to talk about the different theories and techniques you train with though.

On this line of thought, might I ask, what kind of stance do you normally train your students to fight in? Traditional long bo type stances, or perhaps more of a boxing stance? We teach to keep one foot in front of the other in what we call a half moon stance, with the hands up on guard in a boxing guard. We emphasize heavily on staying in constant movement with light footwork, and not to project your motions until the moment of impact.

Anyway, sorry it seemed we got off on the wrong foot.