Ahhh I cant take it anymore(George Dillman Rant)

[kivikala]

I had trained a little under George Dillman in the 60's. Nothing long term just a as part of my overall martial arts "education". Back then I found him a very knowledgeable, and polite individual. There was nothing pretentious about him. Although brief, my training with him was traditional, but I do recall he did have a fascination with pressure points. Since then, I have heard that "something changed" with Mr Dillman's teachings but I never bothered to check it out..

Now reading in here what has transpired, I find a description vastly different from the man I knew. Maybe I should get out more often, no?

I do know he did study with Trias and Pai (I was there). (looking on my wall) Sure 'nuff, I have an old black belt certificate signed by Trias and Dillman and half-dozen other prominent folks at the time (so what, big deal). I can not verify if he trained with Lee however he was present at the time I was introduced to Bruce. So, there is a possible connection there. The Ali connection is to my understanding true. As for Mr Dillman training with anyone else I have no evidence or knowledge.

Our paths diverged quickly as I was on a pilgrimage and he was but one stop on a long list of teachers I had to see. (Dillman- check, Trias-check, Parker- next) From reading his website it appears he too did the grand tour as I did, but sounds like he made it into a media event. OH my god! maybe I am one of those "martial arts experts" he trained with around the US! LOL!!! What I read here in this forum is so vastly different from the teachings that I knew, that I wonder if we are talking about the same person. Am I shocked? Ya. I am glad I met him before all this hoopla.

[SubGrappler]

Dillman is a rather.... interesting character.

Chicago news did a special on him, or rather one of his most well know students, on his no touch knockouts, and his pressure point strikes.

I cant believe those who've put faith in his no touch ko's and his pressure point techniques. The only people Dillmans student could make his technqiues work on was his own students (this included both his no touch and pressure point ko's).

I dont know if it was blind luck or not, but they took him to Carlson Gracie's Academy in Chicago where he could try his techniques on people other than his own students. He proceeded to attempt his moves on many of their fighters (UFC fighter Stephan Bonner to name one) and then got his arm dislocated in the training session when his pressure points failed to enable him to escape from armlocks.

I despise these kind of people because there are many people who know nothing of martial arts. Everyone has their knowledge either because of trial and error, or through learning from someone else. To suck in people claiming to be able to do what they say they can is just downright atrocious. Someone's going to get killed or seriously injured because of them. The sad part is that after its done, (if it hasnt happened already) they'll still try to find a way to legitimize in their concious what they're teaching.

[KempoTiger]

He proceeded to attempt his moves on many of their fighters (UFC fighter Stephan Bonner to name one) and then got his arm dislocated in the training session when his pressure points failed to enable him to escape from armlocks.

[Samurai Shotokan]

I agree with you SubGrappler..Thats why i made this topic i was tired of this stuff going around and it only addeds to the already high number of Martial Arts myths.

[joe2002]

It is my view that pressure points are on the body if I hit you I hit a pressure point so there for I incorperate using pressure points in my fighting.

I belive that the study of pressure points is fine and good for someone at around a black belts skill level (and I don't mean the one you get with your milkshake and fries). The reason I think this is because you divert your time away from building your foundation of good solid techniques. Cause without those I don't care what pressure points you know you won't beable to make them work when you need to (like in a life or death fight).

If you look at kata (and I'm not trying to turn this into a form vs formlessness discussion) you will see that when you are told to do the straight punch or the reverse punch or what ever it is always the same area (i.e. the center of the chest) if you were to look at those area's in comparison to a pressure point chart you will find that those areas are filled with many of the pressure points that are applicable to fighting. So with out ever having to learn the names (gall blader 6, heart 5, big toe 1) you have been tought how to incorperate pressure points into your fighting. So there really is no point to learning what they are called and focus your training on them untill much later in your development as a MA. And then that is only if you really want to know.

[Willannem]

I saw that show on National Geographic. The scientist that participated in his no-touch knockout did prove that it did not work. The only people it seem'd to "work" on were his own students. It is a well known fact that the power of suggestion is a very powerful thing. If you go in thinking you'll be knock'd out, you most likely will be. His response to it not working was the guy's tongue was in the wrong place. He could also diffuse the technique by raising one big toe off the ground and pressing one into it. If the guy switch toe elevation each time the technique was tried, you could diffuse the technique. At that moment, I lost a lot of respect for Dillman and his art. Other aspects of his art may very well be effective but this whole no-touch knockout deal raises doubts with his system.

I remember reading magazines long ago and his ads were all over the place for buying his pressure point system. At the time I was a bit more impressionable than I am and bought into the hype. I'm glad I never bought the program, though. Like SubGrappler said, I think what he is doing is setting people up for failure which could result in severe injury or death. Whether you believe in you techniques or not, that is very irresponsible. Dillman has a lot of followers. Each one of them are in danger if they try that no-touch knockout or any other questionable technique of his.

On the issue of pressure points working or not, I can attest they do. I had a sensei that could grab your wrist and by pressing in on the meridians running either across the bottom or top with the knuckles of his index finger, would cause you more pain than you wish you never had. I felt as though someone was cutting me with a knife. As easy as it look'd, it is extremely difficult to repeat if you don't have the training. In training for his Sandan, he had to use 2 or 3 ukes at a time due to the pain being sometimes unbearable so he rotated us as not to wear us out.

[Gregory]

I don't know anything about Mr. Dillman, but if he believes his no-touch KO works as it has be represented in this forum, he should go try to claim his $1,000,000 from the James Randi Educational Foundation: http://www.randi.org/research/index.html.

I'm glad this topic was created. This kind of pseudo-spiritual flakiness makes the whole martial arts community look ridiculous. I don't think comparing it to such things as faith healing, astrology, or theraputic touch is a stretch at all.

There is enough misunderstanding about martial arts outside our community that if we don't call these folks out ourselves, then we get lumped in with them. I, for one, have gotten a great deal of personal benefit from the martial arts and I'd hate to see someone turn away from it because of the self-delusional claims, or worse, outright lies, of a fringe element.

[SubGrappler]

On the issue of pressure points working or not, I can attest they do. I had a sensei that could grab your wrist and by pressing in on the meridians running either across the bottom or top with the knuckles of his index finger, would cause you more pain than you wish you never had. I felt as though someone was cutting me with a knife. As easy as it look'd, it is extremely difficult to repeat if you don't have the training. In training for his Sandan, he had to use 2 or 3 ukes at a time due to the pain being sometimes unbearable so he rotated us as not to wear us out.

You have to define what you mean when you say "work."

If by causing pain you mean work, then pressure points sometimes work.

I've had people try to use pressure points on me as well, and they did nothing- they certainly didnt do what they had in mind when they tried to use them.

Pain compliance isnt something I feel should be heavily relied on. Many people can ignore pain, not to mention that alcohol and drugs can greatly dull the effects of it. Adrenanline is even more powerful. For those unaware, the human body has two chemicals which could be considered "pain killers"- one of these chemicals is 100 x more effective than morphine.

Pressure points have their place, but I dont feel they should be relied on. They exist in many styles, even BJJ. For example, a cross face from the back mount is a kind of pressure point attack to get your opponent to lift his jaw. A bicep slicer is often used by fighters to break the grip when another fighter holds his arm to prevent it from being hyperextended when caught in an armbar.

[Willannem]

By “work”, I mean they do what their intended purpose is, be it pain, illness, body reactions, etc. I can’t vouch for everyone that claims to use pressure points, but can for those that taught me. Many people instantly get skeptical when someone says ‘pressure points’ because thoughts of mysticism arise. There is nothing mythical about them. It’s pretty scientific.

You are correct that overly relying on them could get you in trouble. I assisted my instructor in a seminar with a high school Jr. Sheriff Dept. program (Just like J.R.O.T.C., but with Sheriffs). One of the techniques we were teaching was a pressure point on the inside of the ankle that would knock you on your back. Mind you, these were high school kids with the all the attitude that comes with ‘em. There were several “that won’t work on me” individuals. I could apply it effectively to all but one of ‘em. He just so happened to be the biggest of ‘em all. As much as I tried, I couldn’t get it to work. I called my instructor over and she knocked him over the first time, with little effort. She later told me that the I couldn’t get it to work on him was because he had more “meat” on that area of the leg than most people so the point was padded and my skill level wasn’t at the point where I could make it effective. Simply pressing on the leg doesn’t work; knowing how does.

One dimensional martial artists are in a constant state of potential trouble. No one technique or type of defense is to be relied upon in all situations. Being adaptive to your environment and situation is a much better tactic. Pain compliance will work on most individuals as not all people engaged in fights are drunk on alcohol or high on drugs.

My point is not to say that anyone should claim to be a pressure point fighter. My point is to say that pressure points do indeed work as you have pointed out yourself.

[Dragn]

Pressure points deffinately have a place in our training either as a means of causing instant pain or releasing a grip and even occasionaly for a KO. But to see pressure points as some kind of magical all powerfull technique is a grave mistake. Many of them arent so effective against an adrenalin pumped attacker.And you have to be realistic in the way you apply them. I saw a clip from a Dillman video where one of his students hit 3 different points on the attacker while he just stood there letting her do it ,and then slumped to the floor apparrently KOed. Supposedly the first 2 hits were primers setting up the right chi flow for a knock out strike to the 3rd point. It was really sad. Like anybody is just going to stand there......

Every art has some kind of pressure point use. Even Muay Thai kicks to the thigh are aimed at a certain points to inflict more pain. But what I've seen Dillman teaching is just rediculous.