Opinion on UFC

[bushido_man96]

Then you have someone like Royce Gracie, who's anything but an athlete- hes not fast, hes not strong, and hes not big. Hes done karate for about 15 years, but still cant strike worth anything off the feet. He won his fights because he trained in the martial art that gave him the edge to defeat his opponents.

Royce Gracie did Karate for 15 years?? I thought that the extent of his training was in BJJ?

To shadow the point that you made above, it is obvious that possessing soley ground skills won't guarantee you victory in the UFC, like when Gracie was ruling the ring in the early days. The fighters are all becoming so well rounded, that they need to have experience and training in all 3 aspects of the fight. This is evident in the loss that Royce suffered to Matt Hughes. MMA has evolved much.

[ninjer]

You'll get no argument from me about that topic. MMA has evolved to the point where its much more about the individuals skills than it is his style background, because all of the individuals train in the same styles, now that they know what the most effective ones are.

Royce lost to Matt because Matt simply has better jiu jitsu, and is much more an athlete. I think that speaks volumes more for jiu jitsu than if Royce would have been able to submit Hughes. What Royce did 15 years ago still stands, and nothing will change that. What the majority of people found out the night Royce fought Hughes was that Royce's jiu jitsu was never really that great- that means that you dont have to be a world class jiu jitsu fighter like Ricardo Arona or BJ Penn in order for jiu jitsu to work for you in a fight against someone with a sizable weight advantage over you.

[ps1]

Well put ninjer! Welcome to the forum!

[bushido_man96]

You'll get no argument from me about that topic. MMA has evolved to the point where its much more about the individuals skills than it is his style background, because all of the individuals train in the same styles, now that they know what the most effective ones are.

Initially, I don't think everyone trains in the same styles. Georges St. Pierre, for example, started with TKD. He is a black belt of some degree. I am sure that some of this influence exists in his fighting. Chuck Liddell, I think, was into Kenpo.

Royce lost to Matt because Matt simply has better jiu jitsu, and is much more an athlete. I think that speaks volumes more for jiu jitsu than if Royce would have been able to submit Hughes. What Royce did 15 years ago still stands, and nothing will change that. What the majority of people found out the night Royce fought Hughes was that Royce's jiu jitsu was never really that great- that means that you dont have to be a world class jiu jitsu fighter like Ricardo Arona or BJ Penn in order for jiu jitsu to work for you in a fight against someone with a sizable weight advantage over you.

I do think that Royce was/is a world class BJJ fighter. However, I am not sure that his stand-up skills are. Hughes is great as well, although Royce is 40, isn't he? I think Royce can still be competitive. However, he will need to round out his other skills (striking).

[ninjer]

You'll get no argument from me about that topic. MMA has evolved to the point where its much more about the individuals skills than it is his style background' date=' because all of the individuals train in the same styles, now that they know what the most effective ones are.[/quote']

Initially, I don't think everyone trains in the same styles. Georges St. Pierre, for example, started with TKD. He is a black belt of some degree. I am sure that some of this influence exists in his fighting. Chuck Liddell, I think, was into Kenpo..

Initially such fighters didnt train in the same styles- whatever is listed in their style field is often considered their base style. Chuck Liddell may have started with kempo, and St Pierre with TKD, but they both do a combination of boxing/muay thai since their starts in MMA

Royce lost to Matt because Matt simply has better jiu jitsu, and is much more an athlete. I think that speaks volumes more for jiu jitsu than if Royce would have been able to submit Hughes. What Royce did 15 years ago still stands, and nothing will change that. What the majority of people found out the night Royce fought Hughes was that Royce's jiu jitsu was never really that great- that means that you dont have to be a world class jiu jitsu fighter like Ricardo Arona or BJ Penn in order for jiu jitsu to work for you in a fight against someone with a sizable weight advantage over you.

I do think that Royce was/is a world class BJJ fighter. However, I am not sure that his stand-up skills are. Hughes is great as well, although Royce is 40, isn't he? I think Royce can still be competitive. However, he will need to round out his other skills (striking).

.

Royce isnt a world class BJJ fighter now, and he wasnt 15 years ago. Hes a solid black belt- that already says alot, but to compare him to anyone whos in the competition game today, he just doesnt stand a chance. Royce's (and the Gracies) biggest concern was practical jiu jitsu (i.e. the jiu jitsu you're going to use in a fight). In this respect, Royce has great jiu jitsu. Hes great at closing the distance, protecting himself from strikes from the bottom, and manuevering himself to finish his opponent while sustaining minimal damage. All of this, of course, becomes a much different game once your opponent is also knowledgable of jiu jitsu, hence the reason why Royce doesnt do so well against todays fighters.

As far as being well rounded, he needs some serious work on his takedowns and his striking skills.

[bushido_man96]

Initially such fighters didnt train in the same styles- whatever is listed in their style field is often considered their base style. Chuck Liddell may have started with kempo, and St Pierre with TKD, but they both do a combination of boxing/muay thai since their starts in MMA

I agree with you, no argument on that point. However, I do think that their initial training does play a role in their overall fighting strategy.

[baronbvp]

I would say that today's UFC fighters are the best all around fighters in the world, and that some SF guys are their equal. North Korea trains their SF very harshly. I personally know some very lethal US SF people. There is no way to make a comparison between UFC and military fighters because their training and goals are different.

I would also say that every fighter must be evaluated in his era just like NFL players. While Royce may not win in the ring today, he is the one who revolutionized MMA and the reason these guys now are so good. To say Gracie is not a world class fighter is to say Mike Tyson is not a world class fighter.

To one poster: No karate black belt with ten years of karate-only experience is going to beat 3 UFC fighters no matter how aggressive you are. That would lead to a certain and expiditious defeat.

Finally, most of us don't train in MA with the goal of killing our opponent. Most of us don't practice full speed full contact, either, because we have families and jobs. We all do our best to get as good as we can at whatever art or arts we've chosen. And most of us avoid the kinds of situations that result in street fights and wouldn't try to let our ego drive anything.

That's why we still have families and jobs...

[ninjer]

I would say that today's UFC fighters are the best all around fighters in the world, and that some SF guys are their equal. North Korea trains their SF very harshly. I personally know some very lethal US SF people. There is no way to make a comparison between UFC and military fighters because their training and goals are different.

Any military special forces is not going to be able to teach their soldiers to be the same quality of those seem in professional mixed martial arts tournaments for a very simple reason:

Hand to hand combat is not of great importance in modern warfare. With all the long ranges weaponry possessed by even the poorest of governments, hand to hand combat is extremely rare and therefore learning more important things during training take priority over learning hand to hand combat.

[baronbvp]

It may be rare but it is not obsolete. The primary difference is that military are training for kill-or-be-killed situations, often with weapons, and MMA guys are not. But you are correct, MMA guys spend more time per month training to fight by hand.

[ninjer]

It may be rare but it is not obsolete. The primary difference is that military are training for kill-or-be-killed situations, often with weapons, and MMA guys are not. But you are correct, MMA guys spend more time per month training to fight by hand.

Sure they are- when someone taps out to a submission or to being pounded (or when the ref steps in) that would be the "end" of a confrontation. The moment you snap your opponents arm, or choke him unconcious, you have the option of killing him should you want to (since you've already won the altercation). The big difference between the MMA fighters and the military trainees are that the MMA fighters will test their skills under a stressfull environment (competition) while most of the military guys will not have. And yes, tournament competition and professional fights are more stressfull than real life encounters, simply because the anticipation of a fight is worse than the fight itself.