MizuRyu Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 I agree and disagree. there are a lot of thing tma guys talk about that are myths. such as the "fact" that groin shots are instant fight enders, or the "fact" that it's really easy to eye gouge someone. As for sport vs martial, sport arts ARE martial. I can't believe there are still people who differentiate the two. the only difference terminology wise is that I train to compete in a sportive venue. As a bouncer, I use my "sport arts" every night. they work well. martial arts were developed to teach fighting. Doesn't matter if you are fighting in the ring or in the street. its REALLY not hard to maim or kill with my sport arts, so now, why are there different terms?I'm not sure where you get your facts but those aren't preached in any of the TMA I've studied. Sport arts don't teach lethal techniques. By sport arts I am NOT including Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu, that is not originally a sport art but a combative art adapted to sport (but on that note, so are many others). Where the 2 are seperated are in that sport arts have rules and regulations to abide by in their training that fit the sparring and competition they're built to accomodate. Not that they're not lethal, but they weren't specifically designed to be so. I was recently (about 2 months ago) talking to a big MMA airhead and he decided to step on my Ving Tsun experience. He said he's seen Ving Tsun guys in the ring and they do horribly. I told him I wanted to spar him, he agreed. That following Saturday (as with every Saturday at my house) I had people over to spar, including him. He hooked, I stepped back, laped it, stomped on the back of his knee and twisted his head and said "SNAP... you're dead." We went at it again later, he shot in instantly and took me down, I wrapped 2 fingers and my thumb around his trachea and said "crush, you're dead." He and I talked later that night over a cup of coffee and his attitude softened a little more, he said that a good TMAist should be able to adapt his art to the ring regardless of rules, but I brought the point "Having that attitude, you might as well put a Ferarri in a boat race. It may be fast and powerful, but you take away the environment and tools it relies on to perform and it'll fail." Not the best example, but it illustrates my point. "They look up, without realizing they're standing in the palm of your hand""I burn alive to keep you warm" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granmasterchen Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 nice story, just picturing it puts a smile on my face. I don't know how many times i have went to places and sparred various people and tapped them on the forehead above each eye and told them they were now blind, or "snapped their necks" or similar lethal techniques. Good story. That which does not destroy me will only make me stronger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UseoForce Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Mizu, that's a nice story and it is true to a point. However, you do BJJ. You know how hard it is to break someone's neck or crush his/her trachea. Unless you actually do those things, everything is still just theory. I've been gouged and neck cranked many time while grappling, but I have yet to tap from a neck crank and a gouge has never stopped me from continuing the fight. Furthermore, if I hadn't been training in rough-and-tumble BJJ/MMA fashion, I would never had had these experiences and would be unprepared in the event I face them in a real fight. If it works, use it!If not, throw it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbows_and_knees Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I'm not sure where you get your facts but those aren't preached in any of the TMA I've studied.I've heard it in several schools. another example are the supposed knife defenses schools teach.Sport arts don't teach lethal techniques. By sport arts I am NOT including Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu, that is not originally a sport art but a combative art adapted to sport (but on that note, so are many others).not really. bjj was adapted from judo, which was created as a sport. And it has lethal techniques as well, even though they are supposedly taken out. anything can be modified. If I throw you onto your head instead of your back, what happens? If I hold a choke for a prolonged period of time, what happens? If I block your leg above the knee or right on it when throwing tai otoshi, what happens (the leg get's injured). If I have your arm positioned elbow down while throwing seionage, what happens? (I can break the elbow) - sport arts can easily kill or maim.Where the 2 are seperated are in that sport arts have rules and regulations to abide by in their training that fit the sparring and competition they're built to accomodate. Not that they're not lethal, but they weren't specifically designed to be so.the rule in bjj is a tap. what happens when you don't tap? snap! I was recently (about 2 months ago) talking to a big MMA airhead and he decided to step on my Ving Tsun experience. He said he's seen Ving Tsun guys in the ring and they do horribly. I told him I wanted to spar him, he agreed. That following Saturday (as with every Saturday at my house) I had people over to spar, including him. He hooked, I stepped back, laped it, stomped on the back of his knee and twisted his head and said "SNAP... you're dead." We went at it again later, he shot in instantly and took me down, I wrapped 2 fingers and my thumb around his trachea and said "crush, you're dead." He and I talked later that night over a cup of coffee and his attitude softened a little more, he said that a good TMAist should be able to adapt his art to the ring regardless of rules, but I brought the point "Having that attitude, you might as well put a Ferarri in a boat race. It may be fast and powerful, but you take away the environment and tools it relies on to perform and it'll fail." Not the best example, but it illustrates my point.good story, but we have a million of them - and it's not that easy to crush a trachea. I sparred a guy at my old school and told him groin and throat strikes were legal if we could land them. He was unable to hit me in either place. Stories are great, but really don't prove anything one way or another, as we all have our own.On a side note, I put my thumb into someone's trachea last week at work (as many of you know, I'm a bouncer by night) - the guy had problems breathing and speaking, but did not die. and even those problems were very temporary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotokanwarrior Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I have seen mma events where accidental groin shots have ended a match and a lot where it made a differance as well as the accidental eye poke. It is quie easy to dig into the eye socket if you are in the trapping or grappling range. If it does end the fight that is great but it is at least a small distraction to enter with knees, elbows, headbuts......etc for the non sport side of it. Where Art ends, nature begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pocketcoffee Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 You lapped a hook? I'd like to see that. what do i know, i'm an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbows_and_knees Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 (edited) I have seen mma events where accidental groin shots have ended a match and a lot where it made a differance as well as the accidental eye poke. It is quie easy to dig into the eye socket if you are in the trapping or grappling range. If it does end the fight that is great but it is at least a small distraction to enter with knees, elbows, headbuts......etc for the non sport side of it.I'm actually glad you mentioned that. groin shots CAN end a match - they are also stalling techniques where people fake it for time's sake. I have been kicked there in fights (real and ring) and not felt it until afterward. same thing with the eye gouge. Now, the key point you touched on - IT IS MUCH EASIER TO EYE GOUGE FROM TRAPPING OR GRAPPLING RANGE - and that range is the grappler's forte. It is indeed much easier for me to gouge you If I have you controlled and have positional dominance. Same with throat strikes. elbows_and_knees are allowed in some sports, as are headbutts. And illegally, they are used as quick strikes all the time in all contact sports - boxing, muay thai, judo, heck, even soccer and american football. Edited June 15, 2006 by elbows_and_knees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adonis Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Things that make you go hmnnn..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UseoForce Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Things that make me want to make y'all read Mastering Jujitsu by Renzo Gracie. If it works, use it!If not, throw it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sohan Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 .....throat strikes. elbows and knees are allowed in some sports, as are headbutts. And illegally, they are used as quick strikes all the time in all contact sports - boxing, muay thai, judo, heck, even soccer and american football.Great point. I've many times while boxing used an elbow disguised as a hook. I used to watch Tyson use it to finish off opponents in the 80's. Illegal, but if you're quick enough it's hard to catch. And if an uppercut misses the chin and nails him in the Adam's apple---oops.... With respect,Sohan "If I cannot become one of extraordinary accomplishment, I will not walk the earth." Zen Master Nakahara Nantenbo"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." Samuarai maxim"Knowing others is wisdom; knowing yourself is Enlightenment." Lao-Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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