Opinion on UFC

[Kajukenbopr]

I know most of you if not all have seen at least one Ultimate Fighting Champion fight.

My question today is: what is your opinion in it? I have seen UFC and I've seen full contact matches 1 on 1, 2on 1, and 3 on 1 on self defense classes. rarely did these fight reach the ground, and in the cases they did the fighters just tried to get away from each other to get on their feet and keep figting(also, happened in UFC fights).

Do you think most fights end up on the ground?

Another point I want to discuss is other than submissions I dont see or rarely any art in their fights. We all get tired, we all get sloppy without training, but how come these people who are supposed to be the best fighters in the world cant block punches like in the arts that they were taught in, kick like they should, or look for something other than submissions in a fight???

I know strength is necessary in a fight, but, when does it stop being martial arts and become brute people hacking away at one another??

Why does UFC change the styles and makes it look more and more like kickboxing/bjj ??? I know those are effective styles, but there IS more than that in the world of martial arts, and YES, they are effective.

What is your opinion?

--by the way, I know it seems like I am attacking UFC,but, in fact I enjoy watching the fights--

[elbows_and_knees]

I know most of you if not all have seen at least one Ultimate Fighting Champion fight.

My question today is: what is your opinion in it? I have seen UFC and I've seen full contact matches 1 on 1, 2on 1, and 3 on 1 on self defense classes. rarely did these fight reach the ground, and in the cases they did the fighters just tried to get away from each other to get on their feet and keep figting(also, happened in UFC fights).

Do you think most fights end up on the ground?

I have seen several fights go to the ground, and have recently been involved in one. The result? The guys without any ground knowledge got beaten. The one I was recently in involved multiple attackers.

Another point I want to discuss is other than submissions I dont see or rarely any art in their fights.

No offense, but that is because you don't know what you are looking at. Many people think grappling is boring - that it merely looks like rolling on the ground. Once you learn how grappling works and what they are trying to do, you see more art. Also, they are FIGHTING, not training, sparring, etc. Fighting typically isn't pretty.

We all get tired, we all get sloppy without training, but how come these people who are supposed to be the best fighters in the world cant block punches like in the arts that they were taught in, kick like they should, or look for something other than submissions in a fight???

actually, blocking can be quite inefficient when dealing with repeated strikes. It's like walking backward - the guy walking forward will always catch you eventually. you can't block everything' eventually, you will get hit. consequently, movement is preferred. Not all fighters like to move - some prefer to stand there and duke it out, hoping they do more damage first - it's all personal preference. As for only looking for submissions, you don't watch any recent MMA stuff, do you? most of the action now is standing and not on the ground.

I know strength is necessary in a fight, but, when does it stop being martial arts and become brute people hacking away at one another??

It doesn't and never will. they are MARTIAL arts, after all. As I said, fighting isn't pretty.

Why does UFC change the styles and makes it look more and more like kickboxing/bjj ??? I know those are effective styles, but there IS more than that in the world of martial arts, and YES, they are effective.

because they are using what has worked time and time again. this is what research over hundreds of fights has shown us. Can a butterfly kick work in a fight? sure, it CAN, but from what we've seen, less flashy techniques are more effective. When someone goes on a winning streak using unconventional techniques, you will then see people begin to re-evaluate. Until then, don't expect to see it... Also, nobody from those other styles is willing to step up and put themselves on the line like that. it's rare that you see a traditional stylist who is willing to compete.

[Steve_K]

I understand what you mean. What I often notice in MMA fights, is that the fighters will trade punches in the beginning, but they seem to be looking specifically to go to the ground and stay on the ground, because when they have an opportunity to stand back up, they instead try to take the mount on their opponent. It is my contention that tournaments like the UFC are often more of a jujitsu/jiu jitsu competition that ALLOWS the competitors to strike with hands and feet, but is in general a ground fight. A stand up martial artist would do just fine in MMA as long as they mastered ground defense and escapes, and they could generally just forget offense on the ground unless they were forced otherwise.

[supergalactic]

A stand up martial artist would do just fine in MMA as long as they mastered ground defense and escapes, and they could generally just forget offense on the ground unless they were forced otherwise.

You have to understand a lot of the UFC fighters do have MA's backrounds and what they have done is evolved and cut the fat. You say a martial artist would do fine if he learned how to defend the shoot and the ground game, hence he would have to know his opponent and adapt. Why is everyone so threatened by MMA fighters. Like elbows_and_knees said"because they are using what has worked time and time again." The UFC was set up to pit martial artist against martial artist and if you watch the early ones the Kung Fu and TKD guys lost, their style didn't stand up against some of the best fighters. That isn't to knock those styles it is just a fact.

[SubGrappler]

I understand what you mean. What I often notice in MMA fights, is that the fighters will trade punches in the beginning, but they seem to be looking specifically to go to the ground and stay on the ground, because when they have an opportunity to stand back up, they instead try to take the mount on their opponent. It is my contention that tournaments like the UFC are often more of a jujitsu/jiu jitsu competition that ALLOWS the competitors to strike with hands and feet, but is in general a ground fight. A stand up martial artist would do just fine in MMA as long as they mastered ground defense and escapes, and they could generally just forget offense on the ground unless they were forced otherwise.

THATS the problem you're having when you're trying to watch such events. You're assuming everyone is a grappler. The fact of the matter is there are just as many strikers as there are grapplers in MMA competitions. That line is becoming hazy as well, since all the fighters nowadays are getting so well trained, they can be a striker or a grappler at any given time since they possess the skills needed for both.

"A stand up martial artist would do just fine in MMA as long as they mastered ground defense and escapes"

You're right, and its a good thing that you bet on that, because its already been proven. Fighters like Pete Spratt, Robbie Lawler, Chuck Liddel, Marvin Eastman- have ALL done exceptionally well in the UFC and are fighters who prefer the fight on the feet. Lets pick apart what it is you see in these fights:

"What I often notice in MMA fights, is that the fighters will trade punches in the beginning, but they seem to be looking specifically to go to the ground and stay on the ground"

It really depends on the fighters. Just because someone clinches doesnt mean they're looking for the ground game, so bear that in mind. It is also inevitable that anytime there is an exchange of strikes on the feet, one of the two fighters is going to get the better of it. If you're getting beat on the feet, strategy and intelligence would have you try a different approach (i.e. the clinch or the ground). There have been more than a few occasions where you get two strikers who will stay on their feet until the bitter end or until one knocks the other out.

"they seem to be looking specifically to go to the ground and stay on the ground, because when they have an opportunity to stand back up, they instead try to take the mount on their opponent."

If you hold the top position in a ground fight, you're in a pretty good position to dish out some punishment, ESPECIALLY if your opponent isnt a specialist in groundfighting. The only other position that could arguably offer the same odds of finishing a fight with such effectiveness as the mount would be the back mount position. This is mixed martial arts, and its almost inevitable that you're going to see a fight go through all phases of a fight (standup, clinch, and ground).

Reasons why someone would elect to stay on the ground rather than stand up when they hold the top position:

1:It offers a chance for them to rest.

2:while they rest, their opponent has to work to avoid blows, protect his position, and possibly escape.

3:if he doesnt know how to fight particularly well on the ground, you stand a better chance of pounding him into defeat there than on the feet (if hes a good striker for instance).

4:Simply standing up out of the guard isnt as easy as it sounds- An open guard is easy to stand up out of, but stand up in a closed guard could offer some attacks for the man on bottom.

5. Many times fighters will get stunned and knocked down, but not knocked out. If you dont follow the fight down to the ground, you may have missed your opportunity to end the match.

"It is my contention that tournaments like the UFC are often more of a jujitsu/jiu jitsu competition that ALLOWS the competitors to strike with hands and feet, but is in general a ground fight."

You're wrong- the UFC is more like a karate competition that allows fighters to wrestle on the ground

Seriously though, there are people from all aspects of martial arts in these tournaments, you simply have to pay more attention to these events. Its difficult to escape after you've been thrown to the ground, especially when you're trying not to get knocked out in the process. The natrual tendency of a fight, regardless of the styles of the opponents, is to end up in a grapple, whether it be on the feet or on the ground, so the very nature of fighting itself favors the grappler.

[KempoTiger]

here we go again....ok my thoughts on this.

First and foremost we have to remember that the UFC is a sport. Nothing more nothing less. Now we can argue whether it's the closest thing we have to a real fight or not, but for now I think we can all agree it's still a sport.

Now as a sport (especially a commercialized sport) the UFC has rules. As it's progressed from illegal backyard brawls and pit fighting, it's gained many more rules to make it "safer" as well as more entertaining. Apparently the powers that be don't want to see a 45 minute matchup of one of the Gracie's trying to tire their opponent and pull off a lock. They also don't want lawsuits when one of these fighters get's kicked in the knee, then groin, with a follow-up driving roundhouse kick into the face shattering their jaw.

What it comes down to, is that in the sport of the UFC, they have to use what works to win. Pressure points won't work unless you really apply them which you can't so that's out. Driving your foot down on the back of the head of that grappler going for a shoot isn't allowed, so that's out.

What they're reduced to is trying to bash the other guys face in, and perhaps tie him up on the ground if he doesn't get KO'd. They are doing what they have to do to win within the confines of the ring.

Ok now that my UFC bashing is out of the way, let me rebut myself a bit, and bring to light some of the better points of the sport.

First and foremost "I" believe that the UFC has done much to undo the dogma of many I'll call "established" styles. To use the term "traditional" as SG did above, opens the debate up in too many different directions.

In the beginnings of the legal form of the UFC there wasn't many rules, and many stylist from known established systems competed, and fought in the form they were taught. Long story short, many of these fighters did nothing short of abandon their style in favor of a more brawl-style beatimup fashion. Right off the bat, grapplers finally came to shine and the typical dogma of "you don't want to go to the ground in a fight unless you have to" that just about all of us have heard in nearly any martial arts class was put to rest. Now this isn't to say that in a street fight, that still doesn't hold true. For one doesn't want to get caught on the ground trying to get someone to submit while getting kicked in the head by three of the other guys friends. But in a 1 on 1 matchup, grapplers seemed to be taking the cake, forcing the other fighter to fight "their way."

Many kicking styles such as much of the Korean arts, were no match for grapplers, who had a knack for shooting in at the right moment. Kung fu stylists seemed to lack the power to match up with raw strength of a Thai kickboxer. All of this is of course debatable but thats the way it played out in the UFC matches.

My thoughts anyways.

Edited September 7, 2005 by KempoTiger

[SubGrappler]

What it comes down to, is that in the sport of the UFC, they have to use what works to win. Pressure points won't work unless you really apply them which you can't so that's out. Driving your foot down on the back of the head of that grappler going for a shoot isn't allowed, so that's out.

Pressure points are usefull as tools, because they are NOT a means to an end. They have been legal since the very first UFC and like many of the other myths of MA's they have gone their way. As I said, they're usefull as an accessory to a move, for example, using a cross face on an opponent from the back mount to lift his chin and expose his neck. Another example would be driving ones elbows into an opponents inner thighs to open his guard. So you see pressure points do exist in UFC and MMA, they just dont do what people thought they would (i.e. KILL/maim someone)

As far as kicking someone while they go for a shot, thats never been very effective. The only one I can remember was Hendo vs Rezno Gracie, which is one successfull attempt out of over 100 MMA shows I've seen. While I think this rule is a hinderance to strikers, they've got way too many rules already in their favor, so they've got no room to complain.

[KempoTiger]

What it comes down to, is that in the sport of the UFC, they have to use what works to win. Pressure points won't work unless you really apply them which you can't so that's out. Driving your foot down on the back of the head of that grappler going for a shoot isn't allowed, so that's out.

Pressure points are usefull as tools, because they are NOT a means to an end. They have been legal since the very first UFC and like many of the other myths of MA's they have gone their way. As I said, they're usefull as an accessory to a move, for example, using a cross face on an opponent from the back mount to lift his chin and expose his neck. Another example would be driving ones elbows into an opponents inner thighs to open his guard. So you see pressure points do exist in UFC and MMA, they just dont do what people thought they would (i.e. KILL/maim someone)

As far as kicking someone while they go for a shot, thats never been very effective. The only one I can remember was Hendo vs Rezno Gracie, which is one successfull attempt out of over 100 MMA shows I've seen. While I think this rule is a hinderance to strikers, they've got way too many rules already in their favor, so they've got no room to complain.

The points are legal, but as anyone who's been in a fight knows merely grabbing or pressing them isn't going to help you in any way. The way to make them work is to strike them and strike them hard. But many of the most useful ones are along the neck, and striking the neck to lead into a lock isn't allowed to the best of my knowledge.

[Valetudo23x]

For a more diverse competition, you should watch PRIDE FC, it has a lot of competitors that arent simular to eachother. Theres guys like Mirko Cro-cop who always keeps the fight standing up, while theres people like Rodrigo Noguira who keep it to the ground. Plus UFC is mostly fighters of the Western region, while Pride has the top fighters from all over the world.

[KempoTiger]

For a more diverse competition, you should watch PRIDE FC, it has a lot of competitors that arent simular to eachother. Theres guys like Mirko Cro-cop who always keeps the fight standing up, while theres people like Rodrigo Noguira who keep it to the ground. Plus UFC is mostly fighters of the Western region, while Pride has the top fighters from all over the world.

I still can't figure out why they fight differently in PRIDE. A friend of mine claims that they're just better fighters, and they've figured out how to outstrike a grappler without getting grabbed, but I'm just not buying it. It's gotta be the name or something attracting different kinds of fighters....either that or a conspiracy by the owners of the shows to only allow certain fighters in! A conspiracy I say!