dishonoring sensei

[White Warlock]

good post

[unknownstyle]

just start to compliment what she does and tell her you think she could do alot better though and offer helping her with her excercises and katas

[Zaine]

you really cant do anything except talk to her, the rest is up to her, if she decides to try harder in karate then she'll do it, other than that there is nothing you can do

[PBI]

If the instructor asks me about my level of effort, I might or might not choose to share how many chronic injuries from decades of training I am nursing, and you know? I might just want to go to class to zone out and do something without putting 100% into it. I feel as though it is my business why I am there and what I do when I get there.

The rewards are mine to reap, and they are mine to choose. I would feel pretty uncomfortable in a karate training situation where there was a lot of group-think going on where everyone felt responsible for me and wanted to control not only my behavior but my goals and needs.

So, when I find myself in the position of being a senior student to someone else, I try to remember that I am not the instructor, and that advice that is not asked for is not help at all, but really insecurity and fear causing a desire to control. I try to suppress this urge and let people get on with their karate. If they want my help, its not like they don't know where to find me.

No disrespect intended, but I could not disagree more with this post.

Part of learning karate is teaching, and if you believe that the only options for teaching are either passive “zoning out” and letting people come to you, or forcing yourself on students as a “hot-shot black belt sent by God,” then you are clearly not done learning. These two attitudes are the extremes, and there is a vast universe of approaches between them that each may be appropriate under some circumstances and for some pupils, but not for others.

It doesn’t matter if you are an instructor, a senior student or a beginner; everyone has something to contribute to the success of the karateka within the dojo. Yes, there are broad differences in comprehension, ability and drive among students, but what that points out is that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to teaching, not that one can’t help because of one’s rank, that certain pupils are hopeless, or that we should all be off in our own little worlds.

As an instructor I have learned – and continue to learn – that some people respond better to constructive criticism, some to encouragement, and some (most) to a mixture of the two. As a student of any rank – but especially a student of senior rank - it is my job to help fellow karateka improve, as it is theirs to help me, and that fact is in no way dependent on my acting like an overbearing know-it-all to get my point across. In truth, some people don’t want help, but that’s fine, too. In those cases, I advise that you offer assistance, and if they don’t accept it, leave them alone until they seek it out from you or someone else. But you offer – not impose - first.

If injuries are holding a student back from putting forth his or her best effort, it is that person’s responsibility to let the instructor know that fact beforehand, not in the middle of class. (Given the opportunity, many teachers will work to provide rewarding training that accommodates whatever afflictions may be acting up. Case in point: just last weekend I trained at a large seminar with a guy who had polio as a kid. He can barely kick, but he is one tough dude, and a good karateka.)

Finally, this will come across as harsh, but I don’t really know how else to say it, so I’ll apologize in advance: If you just want to zone out and put in less than your best effort, please do so in a dojo other than mine. Lackadaisical self-absorption sets a terrible example for the other students in class, and worse, it isn't safe. Maybe it would be better for all concerned if you took up running on a treadmill with your headphones on when that mood hits you.

Your points about priorities are well taken, but makosu at the beginning and end of class is specifically meant to address those other life issues pressing for your attention. Clear your head and leave what is outside the dojo outside the dojo; practice hard; help your fellow students to the degree they would like your help, and your life both inside and outside of karate will benefit.

Not everybody is teachable, not everyone will accept instruction, and not everyone will succeed. If karate was easy, everybody would do it. It is well documented however, that the group dynamic of the dojo – whether it be through loyalty, desire to please, competition or whatever - often spurs the individuals within it to greater heights than they could achieve on their own. Balance these facts with a healthy desire to improve yourself and those around you, and you’re on your way…

[shorei_kai_student]

thank you everyone for your thoughts on the matter i shall take them to heart and go under deep thinking to help me decide what to do

[24fightingchickens]

Part of learning karate is teaching

I find that to be a blanket statement of personal preference applied to everyone with a broad brush. Part of learning karate is teaching _for you_, but not necessarily for everyone else. I do not believe that the karate experience is somehow unfulfilled if someone chooses not to teach. I taught for 20 years and still teach on occassion. I do not judge those who prefer to just train. Each person has their own goals for their training. For some, teaching may help them realize those goals, for others, it just makes the experience less fun by burdening something they enjoy with extra responsibility.

and if you believe that the only options for teaching are either passive “zoning out” and letting people come to you, or forcing yourself on students as a “hot-shot black belt sent by God,” then you are clearly not done learning.

I did not offer these as the only two limitations of teaching. I skimmed the surface of the myriad of scenarios in the limited amount of text I wished to produce. If I am hired by someone to teach a class, I teach them, and I do not wait for them to ask me questions in some cases. In other cases, I do wait for them to ask questions. It depends on the situation and a host of other variables.

But I prefer on my floor that my senior students leave the other students alone. They are not hired by the others to teach them, and unless they are approached for help, I prefer that they mind their own business and do their own training rather than loading more corrections and advice on a student than I have deemed it appropriate to give them. I feel that when my senior students "intervene", it means they think I am not seeing something or I am intentionally missing something. Usually neither is the case - I prefer not to stand over a student of karate and tell them every possible mistake I can find. I only mention what they can fix - unless they ask for a comprehensive diagnostic, then I give one.

It doesn’t matter if you are an instructor, a senior student or a beginner; everyone has something to contribute to the success of the karateka within the dojo.

This is true, but it is not always true, in my experience, that the things senior students have tried to offer my junior students - or that the things my seniors offered me - were of value. In some cases, they were quite the opposite, and I would have been better off without them.

I view a karate class like any other class. If I sign up for calculus, I'm not there to have other students correct my homework or lecture me. I am paying to have the professor do that. If I wish to engage the services of a tutor, I will do so.

As a student of any rank – but especially a student of senior rank - it is my job to help fellow karateka improve

I am sorry, but this depends on where you train. In my dojo, as my senior student, this attitude receives a friendly chat after class about minding your own business and correcting yourself, not your friends. I find that senior students who enjoy playing instructor during class usually do so because they do not wish to pay attention to their own errors and work on themselves. It is much easier to try to fix someone else than to fix oneself.

If you just want to zone out and put in less than your best effort, please do so in a dojo other than mine. Lackadaisical self-absorption sets a terrible example for the other students in class, and worse, it isn't safe.

I find this attitude very militant and do not endorse it. I do not seek to control my students' attitudes. I treat them like adult students of any class. They can be as interested as they want. I do not try to control them for safety purposes. We have rules, and there are consequences for not following them or causing some trouble. I have not had a problem.

I also do not ask that students be responsible to "set an example" for others. They are not my employeees. They are also people who have hired me to teach them. They are not responsible to do anything but fulfill their obligation of obeying the rules while they are present and not disrupting anyone else. Likewise, when I visit a club, I do not accept responsibility for setting an example. That's the instructor's job, if he feels it necessary. I am just there to work out, not to lead people. Just because I have been training a long time doesn't mean I must start being responsible for others. I'm there for me, just like everyone else.

If karate was easy, everybody would do it. It is well documented however, that the group dynamic of the dojo – whether it be through loyalty, desire to please, competition or whatever - often spurs the individuals within it to greater heights than they could achieve on their own.

I believe it is a false assumption that everyone seeks "high performance" results from their karate experience. Each person has their own desire for their experience, I try to respect that rather that forcing my goals onto them and trying to convince them that my goals are theirs.

I realize this is not common practice, but when I visit a karate club, and a senior student starts correcting me, I rebuff him strongly, because I did not hire him to teach me, and maximum learning for maximum ability are not my goals from karate any longer.

[sdargie]

Part of learning karate is teaching.

I find that to be a blanket statement of personal preference applied to everyone with a broad brush. Part of learning karate is teaching _for you_, but not necessarily for everyone else.

I personally don't feel like I've learned something until I am prepared to explain it comprehensively and concisely seventeen different ways to someone else. Ever try telling someone about a book that you didn't remember the main plot twist?

[White Warlock]

Part of learning karate is teaching.

I find that to be a blanket statement of personal preference applied to everyone with a broad brush. Part of learning karate is teaching _for you_, but not necessarily for everyone else.

I personally don't feel like I've learned something until I am prepared to explain it comprehensively and concisely seventeen different ways to someone else. Ever try telling someone about a book that you didn't remember the main plot twist?

My brother teaches physics, and while he feels very comfortable nowadays with the 'fundamentals,' he also feels he has lost a lot of time in studies to expand his knowledge on the breakthroughs due to the time spend instructing.

Also, there are many very talented practitioners that simply cannot teach. Thier skills are ingrained in thier muscle-responses that they have a difficult time communicating the intricacies. To them it's, "just do it." With that in mind, being an instructor may, or may not, make you a better martial artist. It depends more on what your goals are.

I find i like to instruct, like to 'share' my knowledge and open up new avenues of thought in others. I like to do this because it helps me to expand my knowledge in return, especially when working with 'non-standard' students. I.e., those that question, test, and present their own observations... however primal. To me, instructing is an avenue for learning... but only one of many.

and if you believe that the only options for teaching are either passive “zoning out” and letting people come to you, or forcing yourself on students as a “hot-shot black belt sent by God,” then you are clearly not done learning.

Without trying to step on your point, i would like to state that a student of the arts should 'never' be done learning. For once they are, then they are no longer students. And, one should always strive to be a student.

To know is one thing, to tell is another, to be... is but a moment.

[CanuckMA]

PBI,

It sounds like you are a full time instructor. Many of us have gone beyond the 'training is my life' stage.

I'm 45. I have a job, a family, other interest. There are times I show up and train like my life depended on it. There are times where I give only 50%.

As much as I try to leave the rest of my life behind, it may not always be possible. The instructor may not know about my day at the office, that I'm leaving on a business trip tomorrow, that a number of my servers just went down, that one of my many chronic injuries is flaring up.

I pay good money to train, I train as a hobby. The fastest way for me to take my business elsewhere is for some instructor, or worse yet, some 20 something hot--shot who's never faced real professional pressure at work to tell me that I'm not training hard enough.

[24fightingchickens]

I pay good money to train, I train as a hobby. The fastest way for me to take my business elsewhere is for some instructor, or worse yet, some 20 something hot--shot who's never faced real professional pressure at work to tell me that I'm not training hard enough.

LOL! I hear ya brother.

I used to be a 20-something hot shot. I'm now approaching 40 with a family. The contrast in my approach to karate is staggering. Had I had any idea of what adult life would be like later on, I never would have been so lecturing of my older students. Luckily, with age sometimes comes wisdom and patience, and many of them tolerated my extremist approach and insistence that everyone's goal was to be the next Bruce Lee.

When I train today, I rarely give 100%. It isn't there to give. I give what little I feel like I can and still remain functional enough to go home, mow the grass, the change the oil in the jeep, switch the laundry over, help with the dishes, bathe my kid, read him a story, and then pay the bills.