Wing Tsun vs...

[viskous]

to caged warrior: i dont think he meant trying to hurt the guys arms with punches, but trapping them so wing chun accuracy and uprooting could be used,

[ovine king]

who says that you attack the limbs in wing chun?

[KempoTiger]

to caged warrior: i dont think he meant trying to hurt the guys arms with punches, but trapping them so wing chun accuracy and uprooting could be used,

I meant both. I'm not gonna stand out their and try to punch his arms as he tries to hit me. But if I find myself on the inside of a punch, and he's not fast enough to get it back on guard, I'll sure as heck strike that inside of the elbow or bicep on the way into an elbow to the face.

[KempoTiger]

who says that you attack the limbs in wing chun?

To the best of my knowledge, it is a concept that's held in most Wing Tsun schools. A few techniques I was shown, involved blocking a punch down, then sliding forward to trap it down while simultaneously striking the other arm down over it to lock their limbs down. Immediately following that movement would be me sliding my first hand up into a chop or some strike to the neck. All of these motions would be completeled in the a matter of a moment.

[stonecrusher69]

Sure Wing Chun can beat Muay Thai BJJ etc.It has been done already.Of course not on the level of ufc pride k-1 something like that.I have a good friend from canada who does only wing Chun he was canadian champ in full contact sparring.he beat Muay thai guys Bjj guys and other style,so I think it can be done.

[CagedWarrior]

to caged warrior: i dont think he meant trying to hurt the guys arms with punches, but trapping them so wing chun accuracy and uprooting could be used,

I meant both. I'm not gonna stand out their and try to punch his arms as he tries to hit me. But if I find myself on the inside of a punch, and he's not fast enough to get it back on guard, I'll sure as heck strike that inside of the elbow or bicep on the way into an elbow to the face.

This may come off as insulting, but that isn't my intention, so....

First of all, 99% of the time, you won't have enough time to actually catch an arm extended. Second, striking a bicep on the way to his face? What a waste of time and energy! If you're hitting a guy in the face, you need to shoot that punch from your guard with your hips powering it in one motion. (For reference, watch a boxing match.) It isn't possible to get a decent amount of power if you swing your fist any which way into some guys arm, then just pop it into his face. That kind of punch is powered by your arm, not your body. If you do hit his arm, then throw a PROPER punch into his face, you've probably already lost your window. If a guy leaves his hand away from his face, just knock him out.

As for trapping arms... good luck. I've seen all sorts of aikido techniques and TJJ stuff that is supposed to lock my wrist standing or somthing... you know what I do? Jerk my hand back. It's really, really easy to do so, even against "good" practicioners. You'd still be better off just knocking the guy out, or shooting in for a takedown, or clinching for some dirty boxing and/or takedown.

Biggest point here is: if you can elbow his face, just do it. When you're close enough to elbow, you're close enough to take damage and so on yourself. Who cares about a bicep strike or some other nonsensical thing? It will waste your time, leave you open, and possibly make you miss it. JUST KNOCK HIM OUT!!!

[ovine king]

First of all, 99% of the time, you won't have enough time to actually catch an arm extended.

this shows a clear misunderstanding of how things are done.

wing chun doesn't teach to actively catch/seek out the arms; instead we force the other guy to attack us in our guard or in the otehr case, try to get around. this very simple act of putting up a high-ish guard is to make him/her attack us in a way that we are prepared for hence, the "catching" of an arm is nothing more than extending one of our guard hands to get in the way. Boxers do the same thing.

Second, striking a bicep on the way to his face? What a waste of time and energy

you don't strike a bicep on the way to his face.

the initial stop hit is meant to completely disrupt whatever it is he is doing.it isn't an active attack on the limb, just something you CAN do, not something that you have to do. in the case of striking the bicep (which i've never seen by the way) i would say is to push the elbow back and hence ruin the flow/balance of the other guy. you can't punch if you're not stable.

If you're hitting a guy in the face, you need to shoot that punch from your guard with your hips powering it in one motion. (For reference, watch a boxing match.) It isn't possible to get a decent amount of power if you swing your fist any which way into some guys arm, then just pop it into his face.

this shows a misunderstanding of how wing chun punches work, not to mention an indication that you believe that you can finish any fight with a single soilitary hit. just because you can't get any power without completing a full swing, doesn't mean no one else can.

That kind of punch is powered by your arm, not your body. If you do hit his arm, then throw a PROPER punch into his face, you've probably already lost your window.

no, that kind of punch is powered by a properly grounded structure and muscles that you, the average joe don't train as much. have you heard of the double-co cked hip?

If a guy leaves his hand away from his face, just knock him out.

in case you missed it, this is one of the key principles in wing chun.

As for trapping arms... good luck. I've seen all sorts of aikido techniques and TJJ stuff that is supposed to lock my wrist standing or somthing... you know what I do? Jerk my hand back. It's really, really easy to do so, even against "good" practicioners. You'd still be better off just knocking the guy out, or shooting in for a takedown, or clinching for some dirty boxing and/or takedown.

and do you know what wing chun (which isn't aikido or tjj and actually has a different way of "gripping") guys do if the guy jerks his hand back?

shoot out a hit to the face.

this is basic training by the way.

Biggest point here is: if you can elbow his face, just do it. When you're close enough to elbow, you're close enough to take damage and so on yourself. Who cares about a bicep strike or some other nonsensical thing? It will waste your time, leave you open, and possibly make you miss it. JUST KNOCK HIM OUT!!!

simply saying "JUST KNOCK HIM OUT" is pointless.

why do boxers spedn five or six rounds dancing around jabbing each other when they could "JUST KNOCK HIM OUT"?

why do muay thai (european and world, not that pansy US rules that doesn't allow elbows) guys dance around testing each other with little teeps and kicks to the thigh when they could "JUST KNOCK HIM OUT"?

why do bjj guys spend so long rolling around trying to get a good hold/position when they could "JUST KNOCK HIM OUT"?

To the best of my knowledge, it is a concept that's held in most Wing Tsun schools.

not quite true.

trapping is a key concept in all wing chun styles but it isn't the focus as you seem to be implying. what you are missing in your observaton is that whatever it is tht we are dealing with, we receive it from a hands-high guard/ready position and as such, the trapping movment usually is a very slight sliding/deflection AS the our attack is made. In terms of timing, the receiving/trapping is a half-beat (or even a quarter beat) ahaed of out strike.

often, when someone is simply demonstrating to you something, they will do something over elaborate. The same is true of the things you see in books/media. The simple truth is that wing chun is a very simple way of doing things; something is in your way, get rid of it. if nothing is in your way, hit the guy.

Edited September 9, 2005 by ovine king

[KempoTiger]

It's not insulting at all. You make very good points.

I suppose this comes down to how I'd handle an experienced fighter vs. an untrained fighter.

Ironically, a year or so ago while I was teaching, I realized that 90% of the time when it comes to drilling effective techniques, a strike right to the face is the way to go, before continuing with any other movements. So I see what you mean.

I will tell you though from personal experience in a fight, that I have indeed used arm strikes. The way it played out though was the guy through a big haymaker type punch towards my face. I stepped forward and to the side punching him in the face while blocking the arm. After he stumbled back, I caught the slack by holding his arm....so I struck the arm with a forearm strike sending him to the ground.

My point is that I chose to control him rather than just pummel him to death.

[CagedWarrior]

Blocks that strike limbs are blocks that move your hands away from your face, and will get you hurt. In a brawl, which is what it is on the street, you don't deflect punches like Jet Li. It just doesn't happen. Be your opponent a boxer or a brawling untrained (yet probably experienced) thug, they probably know enough about punching to have a good chance and hitting you. Sure maybe you can do that with a wild, ugly haymaker- but why not train to fight skilled fighters? It can only make you better against unskilled fighters as well. Between a guy trained to take on skilled fighters or unskilled figthers, who would be more likely to win?

As far as power is concerned, it's not just me, but every human being in a human being's body needs to throw a full swing to get maximum power. Snap punches do not work. Rabbit punches do not hurt. Backfists and chops (minus one to the throat or something) don't have as much power either. A good cross or hook or somethign with your entire body into it hits hard. You do, in fact, have to throw a "complete swing" to get a lot of power. That's just body mechanics- your legs provide the most power, next your core, then your chest and arms. Elbows are a little different, though, and are best thrown quickly without much hip movement most of the time.

[ovine king]

Blocks that strike limbs are blocks that move your hands away from your face, and will get you hurt.

we have two hands.

wing chun does not need both to put up sufficient guard.

if you always needed two hands to sufficiently guard, then when do you ever strike?

as i said before, the wing chun way of interception, is merely extending one of the guarding hands. the movement is at its most basic form, is exactly the same as a punch; you move your arm forward to get in the way. your position in relation to the other guy should mean that your head is out of the line of attack. it's not like wing guys drop both hands and stick their neck out when they move.

In a brawl, which is what it is on the street, you don't deflect punches like Jet Li. It just doesn't happen.

i never said it did.

you seem to have missed the part about wing chun covering the centre and "forcing" the other guy to attack our guard or try to go around. this very basic thing which again, boxers do, is to add an element of control over what they do to us and gives us, and any guy doing any other style who uses an active guard, to predict what might happen.

again, the point is how things happen. you seem to suggest that the "block" is an active thing. the reality is that the "block" is the result of moving to make the hit.

Be your opponent a boxer or a brawling untrained (yet probably experienced) thug, they probably know enough about punching to have a good chance and hitting you.

so, if the other guy has an experience of fighting, then how can your amazing "JUST KNOCK HIM OUT" work? why is it that if the wing chun guy extends and arm to do something other than directly hitting him, he will get hit in return (i.e he will not be sufficiently covered) where-as the other guy, who is throwing a punch at you will not be covered enough for you to "JUST KNOCK HIM OUT"?

Between a guy trained to take on skilled fighters or unskilled figthers, who would be more likely to win?

at the end of the day, training involves you practicing against someone who is trying to hit you and you train to hit back. whether he is good or not, he will still be throwing punches at you. now here's the big difference. a trained guy will probably know what to do if he is blocked or cut off or sidestepped, where-as the untrained guy will not. against a trained guy, you are most likely not likely to get that "JUST KNOCK HIM OUT" move right away anyway, so your best tactic is going to be to stall and cover and wait for an opening.

so what are you going to do?

will you try that "JUST KNOCK HIM OUT" against someone who might be highly trained who will knock you down after you fail, or cover/block the guy who might not be trained just in case he does know what to do afterwards?

As far as power is concerned, it's not just me, but every human being in a human being's body needs to throw a full swing to get maximum power. Snap punches do not work.

and what then if you are so close that if you acan't do a full swing? how many brawls, stay at swinging range? what kind of fights stay at swinging range? answer=either totally untrained fights where both parties have no idea of how to "in-fight" or a professional fight where the rules don't allow close range and the fighters are separated when-ever they get too close. in both situations, what you do end up is two people who either only know how to make full swings, or two people, who by the nature of the rules, have the room to make full body swings.

if snap punshes do not work, why do boxers use the jab so much?

You do, in fact, have to throw a "complete swing" to get a lot of power. That's just body mechanics- your legs provide the most power, next your core, then your chest and arms. Elbows are a little different, though, and are best thrown quickly without much hip movement most of the time.

yes but you do not have to do a full swing punch to get an effective punch. again, what if you don't have to room or the time to complete a draw back to swing forward again? also, how you throw your elbow depends on what you are doing with it. in a lot of cases, the real power in a close up elbow move is in your hips/body as you bend into it. if you are only swinging your elbow to make the hit, then that is not much better than not using your stance/body to punch.