Wing Tsun vs...

[elbows_and_knees]

That’s not always true. The same could be said in reverse. You can take a couch potato (or some uncoordinated geek) and train them in the best Muay Thai school, with the best instructors and best methods, and they're still ineffective. They get beat by a superb athlete with terrible technique. I’ve seen it in Wing Chun classes, Muay Thai classes, BJJ classes, wrestling classes, boxing classes and Karate classes. It still comes down to the individual.

Anything CAN happen, but that situation is A LOT less likely.

I have to disagree. You wouldn’t go into the ring and only use or have the elbows of Muay Thai at your disposal. You can’t win with just an elbow technique. You use everything you need, but how do you know what that is? If you have all your tools at your disposal, the kicks, punches, elbows, knees, footwork, you have the correct responses for the situation. And you use them all at the right time. And without all your tools available, you’re limited in what you can do and how effective you can be.

We will have to agree to disagree... muay thai has spinning kicks, hook kicks, jumping elbows... A lot of people have no clue these techniques are even there, but they compete very effectively. Why? because you don't need EVERY tool to be effective. Talk to any judoka that competes on a serious level. Do you think he uses ALL of his throws? No. They will tell you that they focus on 8 throws - one throw for each direction - and they will have between one and three of those throws mastered. Those are their bread and butter techniques.

I believe you misunderstood my reply, I said extreme movements are not needed. I agree with you there, but most everyone perceives gross motor skills (big motions) as needed to generating more power.

my bad.

But trapping is not attacking the arm. A misconception of trapping is that I am trapping you. Incorrect, you’re trapping yourself. And if a trap is possible, I’ll use it. But, I (or Wing Chun practitioners in general) am not going to try (and should not attempt) to use a trap if it isn’t there. If you feint, it doesn’t mean I will attempt to use a trap every time. It will depend on the situation. Everyone thinks that Wing Chun only has trapping and that’s that all we ever do. Wrong.

I don't think it only has trapping. But since I know you do trap, I know you look for that opportunity. consequently, I have a follow up ready, or a feint of some sort. When I trained cma, I used to do this with our wc guys. Yes, you are making me trap myself, but you have to initiate the trap in order to get me to do so. When you attempt that pak so, your out stretched arm leaves your face unguarded, for example.

It has grappling. I don’t know about other lineages, but I was doing grappling in Wing Chun with my sifu in the eighties before the big BJJ craze hit the U.S.A.

it wasn't wc, unless he or someone in that lineage tried to create it by applying chin na on the ground. When I trained cma (longfist) we did that also... and it sucked compared to what I learned in bjj. it doesn't carry oever naturally and it's not in the system. by trying to apply standing grappling to the ground we are trying to reinvent the wheel... A lot of wc schools I hear of today have something they call "anti grappling" which is their attempt at countering ground fighters. But all of the wc people I know, from various lineages say that wc lacks groundwork. Out of curiosity, what is your lineage?

Not true, see my first response.

I think that here, you are misunderstanding me. I'm saying that this is why people think WC is inefficient. By your own admission, only the most dedicated students receive the whole system.

I never said anyone was withheld anything. I said those forms were reserved for the most diligent, the most dedicated, the most trusted life long students to the kwoon. I think after 2 years in any school you are considered those things.

different definitions, IMO... I wouldn't consider 2 years dedicated and lifelong. I trained longfist for like 5 years before leaving.

And then it’s the most trusted, the most diligent, the most dedicated students because it takes that long to get to that level. That’s all. Same in Wing Chun, it takes that long to get to the advance levels to be taught those forms. I also said students don’t get to the levels needed to see or be taught how to generate striking power correctly or use the footwork in its entirety. That’s because they don’t stay around long enough to get it. That is a common problem (as well as many others) with all martial arts schools. 6 months and poof, they’re outta here. 6 months in Muay Thai gets you a foundation, but you are not the same type of fighter as someone practicing diligently for 2 years, correct? And students are taught footwork in Wing Chun long before they get to the forms I mentioned previously. But many do not use the footwork. That is a limitation of the practitioner, not the system.

gotcha.

[Traditional-Fist]

just want to point out that the crane.50megs site is very biased towards the chinese styles and should not be taken to be absolute fact..

A more careful study of that site should reveal that the site is not as biased towards chinese styles as one may think.

There may be like four articles there favoring MT and some honorable mention in others, but it is no secret that that site is biased.

As I said before, the site is not as biased towards chinese styles as one may think, it is not the quantitiy of articles favoring MT but the "QUALITY". Just click here and you will see: https://www.crane.50megs.com/index6d.htm

[Traditional-Fist]

Elbows and Knees,

There IS ground fighting in Wing Chun as well as in other major kung fu styles (as seen in the other related thread in which you were participating). It is effective when combined with other WC techniques.

I am not aware of the type of grappling that you learnt in your cma training and maybe, as you put it before, someone did try to apply chin-na to the ground, but in your school and not in the AUTHENTIC WC schools that practise ground grappling.

You see, WC grappling is distinct as it sticks to WC concepts and methodology. So in effect what you learnt was not WC grappling and wether it was authentic kung fu grappling I don't know. Based on what you said before about kung fu grappling in other occassions, it seems that you did not believe that there was any ground fighting/grappling in kung fu as a whole.

Since I did refer you to a traditional kung fu site where it showed that grappling did indeed exist in kung fu would you now consider the grappling that you yourself studied in your Long Fist school as anything similar to what you saw on that site or not?

From your own description of what you studied and from your comments about WC and Kung Fu grappling in general I would say that what you studied in your cma school was not anything like what you saw in that site.

Just to close. WC does take longer to make effective and workable than it would if one was training MT. It is the nature of the beast. It does have effective ground fighting as well as many hand and leg techniques that are not taught in many WC schools. There are also kung fu styles that take even longer to make effective but once an effective level is reached then wether one is fighting a another kung fu man or MT fighter is irrelevant and of course on one level it is important on who is DOING the fighting as well, as stated by ZepedaWingChun.

[CFREW]

I have been studying MT for the past 5 months now, and i am also a kung fu practiconer in a southern style, short fist kung fu called, CHI KUNE JOW DO kung fu bringing both southern style TONG LONG ( mantis fist ) an LO FU DO ( way of the tiger ) for the past 5 years, an am also a brown belt in bujikan ninjitsu

TONG LONG an LO FU DO, are very similar to the studies of Wing chun, as we both study in grappling, chi sao, phon sao,jow sao, the list goes on so WC an my styles are very similar

now my understanding is that both MT and WC have its strengths an weaknesses i can speak from both sides as i study kung fu as well as MT,

all i can see is do not limit yourself to just one MA but like my father taught me ( BE WELL ROUNDED ) the only limitations is that of which you place of yourself,

if i was to say which was the better MA, i would say, STUDY BOTH STYLES, because its not about the style, BUT OF THE PERSON, an what they are willing to do, are the willing to put there life on the line or not

p.s i would also like to state that with MT i found it harder to fight a group,

yes i have gained speed, power, an accuracy but i see this as a minor short coming or limitation of the art, it is definetly lethal with a 1 on 1 fight but what happens when your out late at night in town, an a group of thugs jump you, you aint wanting to stand around an elbow or round house kick everyone of them or curb knee them, you dont have the time, so this is a short coming of the art,

where with in KUNG FU you are free flowing, able to move always move

everytime you make contact with them its designed to hurt, whether its a block its designed to hurt muscle, well

thats my 5 cents

CHEERS

from the beautiful land of the long white cloud

AOTEAROA aka NEW ZEALAND

[shogeri]

I agree that with any training or experience, the biggest limitations we face are those we place upon ourselves by; 1)either not having the proper information, 2) by allowing other's to speak for us, or 3) by trusting in something without fully attempting to understand just what it is we are trying to learn and or trust in.

The more we know something, and the better we know it, and are comfortable with it, and how it fits into our lives, the better we are able to remove fear and doubt from our life in the first place.

Take care!

[elbows_and_knees]

As I said before, the site is not as biased towards chinese styles as one may think, it is not the quantitiy of articles favoring MT but the "QUALITY". Just click here and you will see: https://www.crane.50megs.com/index6d.htm

Notice I said that only like four of them gave mt an honorable mention... that refers to quality. It's a very biased site.

[elbows_and_knees]

TONG LONG an LO FU DO, are very similar to the studies of Wing chun, as we both study in grappling, chi sao, phon sao,jow sao, the list goes on so WC an my styles are very similar

For reasons elaborated on by ovine king in another thread (or was it this one?) the chinese were very against being on the ground. Consequently, they lack ground work. They do, however, have plenty of stand up grappling.

now my understanding is that both MT and WC have its strengths an weaknesses i can speak from both sides as i study kung fu as well as MT

with several years training in each, I can speak from both sides as well.

all i can see is do not limit yourself to just one MA but like my father taught me ( BE WELL ROUNDED ) the only limitations is that of which you place of yourself,

agreed.

if i was to say which was the better MA, i would say, STUDY BOTH STYLES, because its not about the style, BUT OF THE PERSON, an what they are willing to do, are the willing to put there life on the line or not

it's more about the training methods than the person, but I would not say that one is better than the other. there is no superior style, only superior training methods.

p.s i would also like to state that with MT i found it harder to fight a group,

yes i have gained speed, power, an accuracy but i see this as a minor short coming or limitation of the art, it is definetly lethal with a 1 on 1 fight but what happens when your out late at night in town, an a group of thugs jump you, you aint wanting to stand around an elbow or round house kick everyone of them or curb knee them, you dont have the time, so this is a short coming of the art,

where with in KUNG FU you are free flowing, able to move always move

everytime you make contact with them its designed to hurt, whether its a block its designed to hurt muscle, well

1. you have only been training it 5 months, so you would have a hard time using it against one person, let alone several.

2. any time you are in a multi-person situation, chances of 'winning' are slim.

3. there was an article posted not too long ago about a thai boxer who chased THREE ARMED ASSAILANTS from his home. all three ended up in the hospital.

4. most people will never be in such a situation anyway. But this falls into a different topic that we debate about here...

[CFREW]

Hay All

Shogeri i truly admire your understanding/perspective an outlook of things, very similar to my views,

[Traditional-Fist]

As I said before, the site is not as biased towards chinese styles as one may think, it is not the quantitiy of articles favoring MT but the "QUALITY". Just click here and you will see: https://www.crane.50megs.com/index6d.htm

Notice I said that only like four of them gave mt an honorable mention... that refers to quality. It's a very biased site.

That one page, was in my opinion, very biased towards MT, I mean high quality biased. A site that was described as "very biased" towards chinese MA's would never show so many pictures of kung fu fighters being clobbered uncermonously by MT fighters.

In reality, what some people see as biased are merely facts with which they do not agree. And what some people see as facts are biases. So on some level opinions(idependent of the facts) play a big part in the perception of what is biased or not. If you have made up your mind that that site is biased then that is fine but I am sure other (not all) forum members will have a different opinion.

[Traditional-Fist]

For reasons elaborated on by ovine king in another thread (or was it this one?) the chinese were very against being on the ground. Consequently, they lack ground work. They do, however, have plenty of stand up grappling.

It was another thread. A thread in which I stated that Wing Chun ground fighting/grappling, based on the WC concepts, is taught at the late stages of Chum Kiu. I also stated that the Northern Praying Mantis kung fu stylists also practised grappling/groundfighting as part of their system. I also refered you to a site that demonstrated Shaolin groundfighting/grappling. Here is the link, again:

https://www.wongkk.com/video-clips/wrestling/overview.html

and here is the original thread with the relevant comments:

click here and then go to PAGE 3 of the thread. https://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=23987

Shaolin Kung Fu does not "lack" ground fighting/grappling it is the so called experts, who teach it incorrectly, who "lack" indepth knowledge of what they are teaching.