Wing Tsun vs...

[Traditional-Fist]

Something that I have noticed that noone has yet to mention is the similarities between the arts mentioned, especially between wing chun and muay thai. for example, the teep or kicks used to set up in muay thai operate on the same principle as WC's stop-hit, or intercept: basically you use your closest weapon, in this case your foot, to open the gate, so to speak, for your next weapon. Likewise, WC also has devastating elbow strikes: see WC's second form chum kiu, and utilizes the knee for its entry technique.

Also, as far asw kickboxing is concerned, WC uses a semblance of the "Stick & move" strategy. For those of you who are uninitiated into the traditional training of WC and sparring, we do not sit like ducks on a pond when fighting! True, we do not like to waste energy but that does nto mean that we sacrifice ourselves by not moving away from an oncoming target. Fact is, WC's triangular stepping is most effective against many so called "real-fighting" styles (as if to imply that there are martial arts that do not train for "real life" combat) and boxers, kickboxers or otherwise, do not corner the market on having evasive or even aggressive footwork.

As Ovine-king" suggested, training is everything! No martial art is perfect by itself, it takes the diligence and pain of discipline to truly master an art rather than have it as master over you. WC has been very adept at preventing me from receiving harm from the hands of both the desperate thugs of the street and the white collar thugs from the dojo, perhaps the same is true of others for muay thai or kickboxing--a question of "who would win" even if all things are equal is misleading because even twins are not equal--none ever recorded were delivered at exactly the same time--instead, as some budo texts recite: the warrior should consider his own demise daily" as a way of defeating his own fear of martial engagement or more precisely, defeat. But I digress, check out the text below my post about the anture of training in MA

Interesting. Have a look at this page for some interesting hypothesis: https://www.crane.50megs.com/index6u.htm

[Socratic_Sifu]

Traditional-Fist: Thank you very much for that link! It was both informative and an exciting read. I had no idea of the that there wass such a hypothesis out there even though I could see via the forms the similarities between the two arts. It makes me want to take up the art of muay thai if for no other reason than to understand my Wing Chun even more fully-I definitely have an even greater respect for Sifu Muk Jong

[Traditional-Fist]

Socratic_Sifu,

I am glad that you found the article interesting. I have a feeling that more research needs to be undertaken in this area.

Good luck with your training.

[elbows_and_knees]

The thing about that article is that it is speculative. I've been hearing for years that WC was tied to muay thai, but if can't be verifiably proven - too much of thai history has been lost. One theory is that it is an offshoot of a burmese art called bando. Another theory is this one. Yet another theory is that it descended from southern chinese arts, not specifically WC.

[ZepedaWingChun]

How good will Wing Tsun be in a vs battle against say western boxing, Kickboxing or Tai Boxing? Let's say it's two klones. One with WT training, and the other with one of the three others. Both klones have about 2 years of praktice in their style. How would the WT guy do against the other do you think?

All in all, the question is... Is Wing Tsun good against these three other styles?

Wing Chun is a very effective. As is any martial art, they’re all effective. If you connect with a round kick (from Shotokan or TKD) to the head of a Muay Thai boxer, and the boxer does parry or block, sure it is effective. But it’s the practitioner who determines if they can make said art work or not, not the art.

WC is extremely limited of a style. And the idea of atacking someone's limbs is really ridiculous. A boxer/thai boxer fights to knock the guy out with brutal force. That's what fighting is.

The only limiting factor in the art is the practitioner. Many people do not practice the art long enough to learn it in its entirety. Without the complete system, you do not have all the tools at your disposal. A lot of practitioners only train up to a certain level and leave their Sifu (or kwoon). The famous Bruce Lee was one such practitioner. Then they believe that is all there is, thus they see it as ineffective because they only know enough or have trained enough to use only what they have experience with.

And as for attacking limbs, Wing Chun doesn’t do that. That is a misconception. We will use the limbs of our opponents to jam or restrict their advances using pak sau or gum sau. But it is not attacking their limbs, it’s just a means to an end.

Wing Chun also uses brutal force, why would you think it doesn’t? People assume muscle power and large, over-exaggerated movements as brutal force and that is not correct. If I use a firearm on you, and shoot you, that’s brutal force. But there is not much in the way of using my muscles or large motions to pull the trigger. Force is not measured in the amount of muscle power or motion needed, just energy released. Proper body mechanics yields high amounts of energy, released without an over-exertion of force. It’s like that in Wing Chun, Brazilian JuJitsu, western style boxing and several other arts. People are deceived into believing that Wing Chun doesn’t use brutal force because they don’t see large or extreme movements in our arm motions. Nothing can be further from the truth.

who says that you attack the limbs in wing chun?

To the best of my knowledge, it is a concept that's held in most Wing Tsun schools. A few techniques I was shown, involved blocking a punch down, then sliding forward to trap it down while simultaneously striking the other arm down over it to lock their limbs down. Immediately following that movement would be me sliding my first hand up into a chop or some strike to the neck. All of these motions would be completed in the a matter of a moment.

I’m sorry to say, but you were taught the technique (and concept) incorrectly. The concept of pak sau/gum sau (slapping the arm/pinning the arm) is used by all Wing Chun kwoons, but your idea and execution of the concept is incorrect. The idea is not to slap the punch down, but inward (at mid-forearm or elbow), towards your opponents ribs, thus pinning or restricting the attacking arm. By doing that you are cutting off the use of the arm (momentarily), attempting to knock them off their stance, and restrict the use of the other remaining hand so as not to be able to launch a powerful counter-attack. Many students learn this concept incorrectly and never understand why it doesn’t work when they attempt to use it.

As a Wing Chun practitioner.. I'd have to say the style is limited. But I think Wing Chun should be applied, not adhered to. Mixing it with Tang Soo Do, Muay Thai, BJJ... things of that nature would make it very formidable, but due the lack of solid footwork and powerful strikes, I'd have ot say that WC would be in some deep trouble.

Wing Chun is not a limiting art, only the practitioner limits the art. The Wing Chun system does not lack footwork. It is a complete system, a formidable system, and does not need to be mixed with something else. Most students do not get to the levels needed to see or be taught how to generate striking power correctly or use the footwork in its entirety. Wing Chun footwork is illustrated in the Mook Yan Jong, Luk Dim Boon Quan, and Bat Cham Do forms. Those forms are reserved for only the most diligent, the most dedicated, the most trusted life long students to the kwoon. No one else. So, if you don’t have the complete system, you don’t have all Wing Chun has to offer.

Notice I said ILLUSTRATED in my statement above. You can be shown the forms (all of them as a matter of fact), but not explained the use or the ideas of the hand sets or how the footwork works. Without the analysis, the who, what, when, how, where, and whys, it does you no good to train the sets. The tools are there to understand and handle any type of situation, be it punching, kicking, joint locks, or grappling. You just have to understand how to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

The hand sets (forms or kuens) should be learned in the following order and are thus for a specific reason:

Siu Nim Tao

Chum Kiu

Mook Yan Jong

Biu Jee

Luk Dim Boon Quan

Bat Cham Do

As Traditional-Fist stated, the problem is not the art, but the practitioners themselves. Finding a reputable Wing Chun kwoon is the single most limiting factor of learning the Wing Chun system. Once you have found one, then it is up to you to do what it takes to complete the whole system. Not train bits and pieces or study/practice 2 – 3 years and then quit, assuming there is nothing more to learn. The first 2 forms are just your foundation, and the remaining forms show you how to use the whole system.

Edited December 13, 2005 by ZepedaWingChun

[ovine king]

just want to point out that the crane.50megs site is very biased towards the chinese styles and should not be taken to be absolute fact.

the simple fact that it is generally agreed on that ng mui did not exist kinda puts a stop to this line of supposition anyway.

[Traditional-Fist]

just want to point out that the crane.50megs site is very biased towards the chinese styles and should not be taken to be absolute fact..

A more careful study of that site should reveal that the site is not as biased towards chinese styles as one may think.

[elbows_and_knees]

Wing Chun is a very effective. As is any martial art, they’re all effective. If you connect with a round kick (from Shotokan or TKD) to the head of a Muay Thai boxer, and the boxer does parry or block, sure it is effective. But it’s the practitioner who determines if they can make said art work or not, not the art.

not true. It's the training they receive that matters, not the person. You can take an awesome athlete and train him badly, and he has a good chance of losing to a couch potato that is trained very well. For this reason, style does matter - some styles use inherently better training methods.

The only limiting factor in the art is the practitioner. Many people do not practice the art long enough to learn it in its entirety. Without the complete system, you do not have all the tools at your disposal. A lot of practitioners only train up to a certain level and leave their Sifu (or kwoon). The famous Bruce Lee was one such practitioner. Then they believe that is all there is, thus they see it as ineffective because they only know enough or have trained enough to use only what they have experience with.

You shouldn't have to have all of the tools at your disposal in order for it to be effective, IMO. If you do, then the style isn't very efficient.

It’s like that in Wing Chun, Brazilian JuJitsu, western style boxing and several other arts. People are deceived into believing that Wing Chun doesn’t use brutal force because they don’t see large or extreme movements in our arm motions. Nothing can be further from the truth.

It's not about extreme movements. ANY style should teach you to make your movements smaller as you advance.

I’m sorry to say, but you were taught the technique (and concept) incorrectly. The concept of pak sau/gum sau (slapping the arm/pinning the arm) is used by all Wing Chun kwoons, but your idea and execution of the concept is incorrect. The idea is not to slap the punch down, but inward (at mid-forearm or elbow), towards your opponents ribs, thus pinning or restricting the attacking arm. By doing that you are cutting off the use of the arm (momentarily), attempting to knock them off their stance, and restrict the use of the other remaining hand so as not to be able to launch a powerful counter-attack.

that's likely what he means by attacking the arm - you are attempting to trap it. If the guy was feinting, or if you miss the trap, you are now open for counter. A possibly safer and more efficient option is to move. sidestepping, for example.

Wing Chun is not a limiting art, only the practitioner limits the art. The Wing Chun system does not lack footwork. It is a complete system, a formidable system, and does not need to be mixed with something else.

it needs ground grappling.

Most students do not get to the levels needed to see or be taught how to generate striking power correctly or use the footwork in its entirety. Wing Chun footwork is illustrated in the Mook Yan Jong, Luk Dim Boon Quan, and Bat Cham Do forms. Those forms are reserved for only the most diligent, the most dedicated, the most trusted life long students to the kwoon. No one else. So, if you don’t have the complete system, you don’t have all Wing Chun has to offer.

And this is why people think it is inefficient. If you go to a thai boxing school, you will learn to fight. Period. They won't withhold info for only "the most trusted, lifelong students" Footwork is a major component of fighting and should not be hidden from anyone.

[elbows_and_knees]

just want to point out that the crane.50megs site is very biased towards the chinese styles and should not be taken to be absolute fact..

A more careful study of that site should reveal that the site is not as biased towards chinese styles as one may think.

There may be like four articles there favoring MT and some honorable mention in others, but it is no secret that that site is biased.

[ZepedaWingChun]

not true. It's the training they receive that matters, not the person. You can take an awesome athlete and train him badly, and he has a good chance of losing to a couch potato that is trained very well. For this reason, style does matter - some styles use inherently better training methods.

That’s not always true. The same could be said in reverse. You can take a couch potato (or some uncoordinated geek) and train them in the best Muay Thai school, with the best instructors and best methods, and they're still ineffective. They get beat by a superb athlete with terrible technique. I’ve seen it in Wing Chun classes, Muay Thai classes, BJJ classes, wrestling classes, boxing classes and Karate classes. It still comes down to the individual.

You shouldn't have to have all of the tools at your disposal in order for it to be effective, IMO. If you do, then the style isn't very efficient. .

I have to disagree. You wouldn’t go into the ring and only use or have the elbows of Muay Thai at your disposal. You can’t win with just an elbow technique. You use everything you need, but how do you know what that is? If you have all your tools at your disposal, the kicks, punches, elbows, knees, footwork, you have the correct responses for the situation. And you use them all at the right time. And without all your tools available, you’re limited in what you can do and how effective you can be.

It's not about extreme movements. ANY style should teach you to make your movements smaller as you advance. .

I believe you misunderstood my reply, I said extreme movements are not needed. I agree with you there, but most everyone perceives gross motor skills (big motions) as needed to generating more power.

that's likely what he means by attacking the arm - you are attempting to trap it. If the guy was feinting, or if you miss the trap, you are now open for counter. A possibly safer and more efficient option is to move. sidestepping, for example. .

But trapping is not attacking the arm. A misconception of trapping is that I am trapping you. Incorrect, you’re trapping yourself. And if a trap is possible, I’ll use it. But, I (or Wing Chun practitioners in general) am not going to try (and should not attempt) to use a trap if it isn’t there. If you feint, it doesn’t mean I will attempt to use a trap every time. It will depend on the situation. Everyone thinks that Wing Chun only has trapping and that’s that all we ever do. Wrong.

it needs ground grappling. .

It has grappling. I don’t know about other lineages, but I was doing grappling in Wing Chun with my sifu in the eighties before the big BJJ craze hit the U.S.A.

And this is why people think it is inefficient. If you go to a thai boxing school, you will learn to fight. Period. .

Not true, see my first response.

They won't withhold info for only "the most trusted, lifelong students" Footwork is a major component of fighting and should not be hidden from anyone.

I never said anyone was withheld anything. I said those forms were reserved for the most diligent, the most dedicated, the most trusted life long students to the kwoon. I think after 2 years in any school you are considered those things. You don’t get a Black Belt in Gracie JuJitsu in 2 years, right? It takes at least 8 - 10 years. And then it’s the most trusted, the most diligent, the most dedicated students because it takes that long to get to that level. That’s all. Same in Wing Chun, it takes that long to get to the advance levels to be taught those forms. I also said students don’t get to the levels needed to see or be taught how to generate striking power correctly or use the footwork in its entirety. That’s because they don’t stay around long enough to get it. That is a common problem (as well as many others) with all martial arts schools. 6 months and poof, they’re outta here. 6 months in Muay Thai gets you a foundation, but you are not the same type of fighter as someone practicing diligently for 2 years, correct? And students are taught footwork in Wing Chun long before they get to the forms I mentioned previously. But many do not use the footwork. That is a limitation of the practitioner, not the system.

As far as anything hidden, it’s not. It’s all in plain sight for you to see. With time you will be taught everything. You can’t just get it immediately in Wing Chun. There are foundations that must be built, which takes time. I agree with you that footwork is a major component of fighting, but you first have to learn to stand before you can walk.

As a side note, I can't speak for other Wing Chun lines. Everything I stated refers to my lineage and the Wing Chun I was taught.