question i should know but don't

[JimmyNewton]

I have a questionthat I should know the answer to but sadly do not.

I've tried looking online, but get somewhat overwhelmed and hopefully I can clear it up hear.

under Shorin Ryu, there is Kobayashi, Matsubayashi, and Shobayashi.

it is my understanding that these branches came about from different points of origin. However, i'm not sure where my style- Shorinkan fits in.

could someone give me some help in these different branches and a bried history lesson. I find my internet searches to be overwhelming and end up getting more confused.

thanks for the help.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Don't forget Sukunaihayashi, which comes from Chotoku Kyan's view of karate. Most notable representatives are Shorin-ryu Seibukan (Zenryo Shimabukuro) and Shorinji-ryu Kyudokan (Joyen Nakazato).

[JimmyNewton]

I'm not forgetting it, I didnt know it. I appreciate your reply, but doesnt really answer anything.

[gheinisch]

Here's a web site that has a section on history. You may have already of seen this and it is no help. Sorry it's the best I could find so far. Your Sensei should be able to tell you the history of your style and it's lineage. I'll kept looking. Sorry for not being more helpful.

http://www.shoryukan.com/index.html

[White Warlock]

.... shorin-ryu eventually splintered into three main branches: shobayashi-ryu (small forest school), kobayashi-ryu (young forest school), and matsubayashi-ryu (pine forest school). All three names refer to the small pine forest where the original shao-lin temple was located in China, and all three are still interpreted as shorin-ryu, or "Shao-lin way," reflecting their Chinese heritage. There exists also a less popular fourth branch of shorin-ryu called matsumura orthodox, founded by Hohan Soken.

Shobayashi-ryu : first taught by Chotoku Kyan, a famouse student of Yasutsune Itosu. Kyan trained serveral notable students, amoong them Shoshin Nagamine, who in 1947 founded the matsubayashi-ryu branch of shorin-ryu. Another Kyan student, Elso, Shimakubu (ro) inherited leadership of shobayashi-ryu. This master has been rsponsible for turning out many prominent karate figures. His most famous student is full-contact world champion Joe Lewis.

Kobayashi-ryu : Another of Itosu's students, Choshin Chimana, is credited as the first to teach kobayashi-ryu. According to at least one authority, this system is identical to shobayashi-ryu: it is believed Chibana simply misspelled the kanji characters, which changed the pronunciation from shobayashi-ryu to kobayashi-ryu. Today, tehse two systems remain virtually interchangeable, with the same forma and patterns visible in their respective kata. Upon Chibana's death, Shugoro Nakazato assumed leadership of the kobayashi-ryu. From Nakazato's line of descent emerged world light-contact champion Mike Stone, who trained with Herbert Peters, a Nakazato disciple.

Matsubayashi-ryu : Shoshin Nagamine, a disciple of Chotoku Kyan, founded matasubayashi-ryu in 1947.

Matsumura Orthodox : A minor form of shorin-ryu, this style was founded by Hhan Soken. Repordedly, some of this style's followers have changed its name to sukunai hayashi. ...

Source - Martial Arts: Traditions, History, People by Corcoran and Farkas

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Shobayashi-ryu : first taught by Chotoku Kyan, a famouse student of Yasutsune Itosu.

This information is wrong. Chotoku Kyan never was a student of Yasutsune (Anko) Itosu, although he worked as a teacher (of karate, in school) in Kadena during the time that Itosu was working there. The exchange of information is possible, but Kyan (or his students) never regarded Itosu as his teacher. For a chart of Kyan Chotoku's teachers, click here

Another Kyan student, Elso, Shimakubu (ro) inherited leadership of shobayashi-ryu.

This is also incorrect. While Eizo Shimabukuro is certainly a known teacher, he has not been a direct student of Kyan Chotoku (Eizo Shimabukuro simply was too young for that during the time Kyan lived). His older brother, Tatsuo Shimabukuro (founder of Isshin-ryu) was a student of Kyan and Eizo's karate reflects the ideas his brother has brought into his karate (such as standing fist etc.).

When talking about Kyan Chotoku's style, the word sukunaihayashi is commonly used (pointing towards the writing style - same as Shaolin of "Shorin" in the style's name). Nowadays there are two schools that aim for preserving Kyan Chotoku's style in its most unaltered form. These schools are Shorinji-ryu Kyudokan (Joyen Nakazato) and Shorin-ryu Seibukan (founded by Zenryo Shimabukuro, currently headed by Zenpo Shimabukuro, son of a former).

Matsubayashi-ryu : Shoshin Nagamine, a disciple of Chotoku Kyan, founded matasubayashi-ryu in 1947.

Nagamine also had other teachers, such as Chojin Kuba (his neighbour), Kotatsu Iha, Taro Shimabukuro and Ankichi Arakaki (students of Kyan Chotoku) and Choki Motobu. He also teaches Itosu no Pinan -kata series which doesn't belong to the Kyan's curriculum (Seibukan teaches Pinan, but states clearly that they're "additional kata" and not Kyan kata).

Source: Several interviews with Zenpo Shimabukuro and Zenryo Shimabukuro's students, interviews with Joyen Nakazato, discussions with Tatsuo Shimabukuro. Interviews and discussions by several students of Okinawan karate.

[Skeptic 2004]

JimmyNewton: Having been a member of your organization, I can answer this question quite easily for you. Shorinkan Shorin-Ryu was established by Hanshi Shuguro Nakazato who was a student of Chosin Chibana. Chibana established Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu. Thus, Shorinkan Shorin-Ryu is a cousin of Chibana's Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu. I say "cousin" because I train with one of Chibana's other students, and Shorinkan as it is currently taught differs in varying degrees from the original methodology that Chibana taught.

Hope this answers your question. A good task for you would be to trace your lineage from your instructor to Nakazato. Once you can link to Nakazato, your lineage is easy to complete all the way to Tode Sakugawa.

[White Warlock]

Thank you Jussi. I've found many errors in that book on other topics. Seems Corcoran and Farkas did a worse job than i thought when compiling information for that book.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Thank you Jussi. I've found many errors in that book on other topics. Seems Corcoran and Farkas did a worse job than i thought when compiling information for that book.

No problem, I'm glad if I could help. However, I must say that one shouldn't judge the karate historians too harshly - karate history is a big, fat and hairy case of work and I am rather convinced that even one style often has a history that is a pretty heavy item for study - even if we stay in happy 1800's. If we go back to 1700's, we have a semi-impossible mission, I'm afraid.

I try my best to give you the image I've got by myself. I must advice, still, that read everything with a healthy dose of criticism - be it published by anyone.

[carl]

I found the book, OKINAWAN KARATE. Teachers, styles and secret techniques, by Mark Bishop, to be a good source on the different styles of Okinawan karate.

But I agree with you, Jussi, when you said, "read everything with a healthy dose of criticism - be it published by anyone."

Carl