San soo and san shoo

[shogeri]

When I think of san shou, I do not think of the competition style of san shou. Rather I think of the actual Martial Art behind the two man form.

Apply, meaning to expand upon technique, and cultivate energy.

San shou is one of the tools in which to apply the principles of Taijiquan Chinese Boxing, or Hao Chuan.

When we put the pauchui forms together in a two person sparring match we call it san-sau or free hands.

In the beginning it is not totally free since we must first learn how to use the techniques properly.

After many years practitioners tend to place some of the techniques out of sync, until finally, it becomes a free sparring match.

The free fighting part must not come too soon as you will forget all about the technique and it will become something similar to a street brawl.

In Tajiquan San Shou, we are essentially combining the traditional Cheng family forms, along with silk reeling (Chan Si Jin) and joint locking (Chin Na).

Again, san shou can imporve coordination and balance, teach fundamental self-defense, expand on the application of the forms, and cultivate energy.

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Those are my thoughts on this...

Later!

[harmoniouswarrior]

Amazing. I find myself agreeing with almost everthing White Warlock said (my regular disagreement is more probably a reflection of my shortcomings than others' posts). The only thing I take exception to, is the value of forms in San Soo (Jimmy Woo's art). In my experience, this art has become fragmented, and the quality of instruction depends heavily on who the instructor is, his personal level of mastery and his ability as a teacher. Given a good instructor, who teaches forms which support the mechanics and flow of San Soo, I think forms can add to the practice of the art.

[Goju_boi]

what do you mean by saying that this art has become fragmented?

[shogeri]

When people hear the term san shou, perhaps they tend to think it's along the same line as tournament push hands, or modern wushu.

This is one way it which it has become fragmented.

Authentic Taijiquan in some ways, has also become fragmented.

The Martial Arts were developed over the centuries in order to aid mankind during times of conflict. They are about war. They are about being the best you can be during those situations.

They are not about theatrics, or sport based competition.

Not everyone has the Martial Art mindset.

As a result, when people attempt to introduce it into their own individual culture, rather than finding their place within a given framework, they attempt to change the framework to suit their own needs.

If a given style is not malleable enough for a person, then they need to find one that is.

The point is to not change or divert a system from it's original purpose. When this happens, fragmentation occurs.

That's my two cents. Not much, I know...

[harmoniouswarrior]

what do you mean by saying that this art has become fragmented?

I mean that the art is taught as many different arts, built more around the personality and preferences of the particular instructor/studio owner than the founder (Jimmy Woo). This is true even in a small geographical area, such as Southern California where Jimmy taught, and even of those who learned directly from him. Example: Some issue belts, others do not: Some give themselves titles (e.g., Sifu), others follow Jimmy's lead and just go by their names; some wear gi's, others have affected Chinese Tai Chi Chuan style uniforms; etc.

[stonecrusher69]

I was just reading a post about San Soo in an other forum.I beive they said san soo came from kempo(ed parker's).Jimmy was a student of ed and later changed the name to san soo..

[shogeri]

I am in agreement with the other posts, that have come to the same conclusion as I.

So far as Yang and Chen Taijiquan are concerned, San Shou is thought of in the following manner, "The form is the alphabet; Pushing hands and San Shou is learning to read and write. The ability to read and write is what makes the alphabet useful."

Now in regards to the official full contact fighting sport of modern Wushu, San Shou, also spelled "Sanda" translates as "dividing hands" and refers to free fighting where the rules are designed to most accurately simulate actual combat.

From what I gather, San Shou matches are fought on a raised platform called the "Lei Tai".

During the 1960’s, modern San Shou developed into a sport about the same time as modern Wushu.

San Shou training programs typically focus on four basic martial arts skills:

1. "Da" (Striking) use of fist, open hand, elbow, fingers, head.

2. "Ti" (Kicking) kicking, sweeping, kneeing, stomping.

3. "Shuai" (Throw) wrestling, throwing, takedowns.

4. "Na" (Seizing) joint locks and chokes, i.e. submissions

Thus, in our current day, we are witnessing a shift back toward the traditional Wushu with the introduction of San Shou. The new compulsory forms of San Shou have eliminated the excessive acrobatics that once plagued contemporary Wushu.

Kung Fu San Soo, also know Tsoi Li Hoi Fut Hung-Ga, was taught for centuries in Southern China, in or around the Guang Dong province. This style is a family style, belonging to the family of Chin Moon Don's. The art of Kung Fu San Soo was taught and conserved in the Kwan Yin Monastery until the early 1800s, and was passed down through the family, until it rested upon the shoulders of Grandmaster 'Jimmy' Woo.

It is not the same as Choy Lay Fut, though is shares many of the same characteristics. Choy Lay Fut is a hybrid Chinese martial art developed by Grandmaster Chan Heung in 1836 at Ging Mui, and the name refers to the people Heung trained under, namely: Masters Choy Fok, and Lee Yau Shan.

It just so happens that San soo also teaches students using some of the same principles as that of San Shou, however the comparison ends there.

I say this, since most CMA (kung fu systems, and karate systems) employ some, if not most, of the following as well:

Tsoi ga- Punching and kicking

Li ga- Throws and leverages

Hoi ga- Pressure point manipulation

Fut ga- Mental strategy in combat

Hung ga- Physical power (Neijia or Wiejia - internal or external)

The many styles offer different training methods based upon their own culture or background or philosophy, in order to aid the student in getting to a certain level of proficiency. This is one reason, why 'Art' is added to the term 'Martial'.

The key thing to remember is that san soo, does not typically employ sparring. Rather, they rely upon technique and reaction. One student initiates a technique, and the other responds with a variety of different techniques themselves.

The core of San soo are the techniques. The principles of fighting go along with them.

This is why I believe san soo, is not san shou.

That's what I know for now.

[harmoniouswarrior]

I was just reading a post about San Soo in an other forum.I beive they said san soo came from kempo(ed parker's).Jimmy was a student of ed and later changed the name to san soo..

Well I wasn't physically present when Ed Parker and Jimmy Woo happened to be in the same room, and I hate to get into 'he said she said' stuff for which there is no resolution, but the evidence I've seen (and these happen to be the two arts I've studied/practiced more than any others), it was the other way around. At any rate, I can't imagine that what I've seen Jimmy do in the film footage could be derived from what I've seen of Kenpo/Kempo.

But then, that's all conjecture--and does it really matter?

[shogeri]

From what I wrote before, and have also concluded is the same thing that Harmonious has...

One really doesn't know unless one was there.

[Goju_boi]

so does san soo have any strong resemblances to kempo or wut?