San soo and san shoo

[y2_sub]

Is there any difference between san soo and san shoo , or are they the same ??

[White Warlock]

ugh, old question. Bear with me here, as i've answered this quite a few times on this board already.

San soo, the name given to, "tsoi i ho fut hung ga" is a Chinese style in and of itself, allegedly derived from similar roots as choy li fut. (Reader's Digest)

San shou is not as much a style, but a form of practice, where the goal is to utilize some aspects of Chinese systems in a 'sport' competition setting. San shou was the Chinese' response to muay thai. (Reader's Digest)

Some links of previous discussions on it:

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=7214

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12371

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12274

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=14195

[White Warlock]

I had an itch, and have decided to add a little more here. Since my last discussions here on these boards, about san soo (tsoi li ho fut hung ga), choi li fut, and sanshou, i've since taken the time to do a little research, visiting choi li fut schools, doing a little hands-on, watching a few demos, and playing around with sanshou spars.

To expound on some things i mentioned earlier:

Sanshou, translated from Chinese (Mandarin or Cantonese, i don't know), means "freeform fighting." At present, it is the sport competition end of many Chinese kung fu systems. Notably, choi li fut.

Tsoi li ho fut hung ga, was dubbed "san soo" by Jimmy Woo's students. Originally, it also referred to "freeform fighting." It was said that Jimmy Woo would call what was normally practiced in the class, "san soo" or something similar (he had a heavy accent), and since it dominated the teaching in the classroom, it was adopted as the new name for the system (being a helluva lot easier to remember, and also easier to advertise). Its origins show to be very similar to that of choi li fut.

Choi li fut was founded in 1836 by Chan Heung, who had a strong base in hung gar (founded by Shoalin disciple Hung Hei Gung) and was a disciple of Li Yao San (progenitor of li gar kung fu), and who later studied under Choi Fook, a Shoalin master of northern kung fu styles.

From what i've experienced, choi li fut and san soo (tsoi li ho fut hung ga) clearly have similar foundations. In Jimmy Woo's earlier teachings, he did not provide forms. This was added later, and the forms do not look much like the choi li fut forms. Ignoring this, i found the philosophies and focus just a tad too much alike. I.e., the approach.

However, the great differences in the two come in the classroom:

Choi li fut is, as i indicated earlier, very much into forms and in focusing on perfection of the forms. Application and actual physical contact with a partner are minimal. For my personal taste, too much emphasis is placed on forms, and not nearly enough on 'application,' which is probably why san soo caught my attention.

San soo is, by contrast, no forms (at least traditionally) and almost all actual physical contact and 'non-resistance' application. I emphasize 'non-resistance,' because i consider this to be a both good and bad thing. It allows for the actual application of techniques on a human being, but without the added effect of the human being posing 'normal' resistance or defense. The practice is ALL freeform fighting, but without the resisting opponent... until the later stages. At the later stages, and depending on the school, resistance is brought into the training. Mid to high ranking students put on body protection and go at it, in much a similar as that of "sanshou." But, with one big difference. I found the san soo practitioners 'better able' to apply what they've practiced... than what i've witnessed of the choi li fut practitioners who transitioned to sanshou.

The finishing aspects of the san soo system are clearly evident when they put on the sparring equipment, and their finality is much more apparent than what i've witnessed of the choi li fut practitioners. Also, in my somewhat brief experience in the sparring arena with the sanshou-branched choi li fut practitioners, i noted they were relying more on 'street-basics' than they were on choi li fut techniques. I.e., what they've studied simply wasn't ingrained, like it was for san soo practitioners.

I can attribute that to the 'way' san soo practices, as opposed to the way choi li fut is 'traditionally' practiced. Like i mentioned earlier, san soo 'always' works out with a live opponent. This 'comfort' in manipulating the human body helps tremendously, even if the opponent isn't resisting. The tactile nature of san soo's practices help acclimate the practitioners to the shape and form of the human body, and all its wierd mechanics and anatomical anomalies.

After these examinations, i've come to appreciate Jimmy Woo's approach, although also recognize that 'more' transitioning to resisting opponents is needed. The leap from 'non-resistance' to 'full-resistance' is just too big a leap, and some critical elements are being lost in the transition. Still, it's a far lessor leap than that required of the 'traditionally-trained' sanshou choi li fut practitioners... which is to go from 'forms' to 'full-resistance.'

[Goju_boi]

so if san soo doesn't have forms,what is for?For sport or practical self defense with joint locks,grappling,weapons,and so forth

[White Warlock]

so if san soo doesn't have forms,what is for?For sport or practical self defense with joint locks,grappling,weapons,and so forth

I didn't say it doesn't have forms. It didn't 'used' to have forms. Now it does, although not all instructors teach the forms, as they prefer the original way it was taught. I tend to agree with them, and find the added forms to be more of a distraction to the san soo training regimen.

As to what it is for, san soo is for combat. Not sport, and not merely self-defense. When someone thinks to mug, rape, or kill you, they think like a predator and view you as the prey. San soo's mental training includes turning the tables and becoming the predator, destroying your adversary by making him the prey. It is a ruthless system that many find unpalatable.

A note: Not all san soo instructors are teaching 'good' san soo. Just like every other system, there are 'black sheep' in san soo as well. If you go to a san soo (tsoi li ho fut hung ga) school, and the system doesn't feel right to you, it probably isn't right.

[Goju_boi]

I wish they had san soo here,it sounds fraking hardcore.Do u know if they do full contact?

[White Warlock]

Do u know if they do full contact?

Not without a body count. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/White_Warlock/violence_03.gif

[Goju_boi]

lol,ok

[shogeri]

san shou as I know it is about taking what you know, and applying it in two man pre-arranged drills.

[Goju_boi]

I've never heard anyone say that about san shou