Difference between a Karate punch, and a Gung Fu punch

[Traditional-Fist]

I seriously doubt the movie you're referring to incorrectly portrayed him as employing karate....

Chuck Norris WAS portrayed as a karate man.

[Traditional-Fist]

I would just like to add, and speaking in general, the body tension and breathing used in the application/performance of karate and kung fu punches can be very different, hence the different effects regarding the POWER and the PENETRATION of the the fist. This means that to the unlooker some of the punches may look similar or even the same, but the energy transfer may be very different hence the "ball on the chain" effect as opposed to the "iron bar".

Bruce Lee said that it "hurts inside", when referring to the ball and chain effect, I.E. More PENETRATION.

Of course this is nothing new. A lot of the times Bruce Lee regurgitated enchante kung fu philosophy when explaining the chinese martial arts. He did this also, when describing his JKD. Many people wrongly mistook the "be like water"; "adapt"; "use what is useful and discard what is useless" etc.,etc. as JKD concepts when this concepts had existed in the chinese martial arts for hundreds if not thousands of years.

[dippedappe]

I have that film on DVD, and I always wondered how the waiters could be that bad and have black belts. Do they state in the film that they've just started? Perhaps I should sit down and see it again.

It was told that they started Karate because of the thug's.

I am not a Bruce Lee fan, nor have i spent an inordinate amount of time reviewing his movies.

Who said anything about doing that? I have only seen the film a few times, because it's a movie I like. The info I have stated about it, is something that was shown quite obvious through the course of the movie.

I do find it interesting though. People have a tendency to hang on Bruce Lee's every word, and yet they've blown off the words of most every other martial artist.

You seem to be the entirely opposite. It sounds like you are an anti Bruce Lee.

The tangent completed, i just wanted to note that Chuck Norris practiced tang soo do, not karate. I seriously doubt the movie you're referring to incorrectly portrayed him as employing karate, but... it's always possible. I mean, those 'were' odd times.

He was portrayed as a master of Karate in the movie. In real-life he has an 8th degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. He might have been pracicing Tang Soo Do aswell, I don't know. He is a six-time undefeated Karate Champion. The last one sounds to me like he also knows Karate. But anyway, I don't care. I don't like the guy on the screen. I think he's boring to watch. The point is that he did Karate in Way of the Dragon.

Alot of stuff he said I would consider common sense being reworded in a flowery deep sounding philosophical sounding way, such as his comments on being like "water". But hey, give credit where it's due.

Alot speaks of the water as though it was Bruce Lee who invented this concept. It was Yip Man who told him of this concept.

Wow,

this thread turned into a bruce lee-psuedo philisophical argument.

Surprise surprise

[Shorin Ryuu]

Of course this is nothing new. A lot of the times Bruce Lee regurgitated enchante kung fu philosophy when explaining the chinese martial arts. He did this also, when describing his JKD. Many people wrongly mistook the "be like water"; "adapt"; "use what is useful and discard what is useless" etc.,etc. as JKD concepts when this concepts had existed in the chinese martial arts for hundreds if not thousands of years.

A nice encapsulation of what I was hinting at.

[TSDforChrist]

Just for clarification, Chuck Norris' foundation style was TSD, he was an undefeated "karate" champion simply because that's what the tournaments were at the time, and he was not portrayed as a karate man in the movie. Coincidentally, his "student" in the movie (Bob Wahl, I think?) was his student in real life, and the shot of them arriving on the plane was actually them arriving in Italy for the filming - Bruce Lee taped them arriving, and wanted to use it in the movie, thus the last minute inclusion of Norris' "student" in the movie. Oh, and his technique, in the movie, was TSD. Not karate. Not only can I tell the difference, but the scene was choreographed by Lee and Norris together, without any other involvement, thus Norris' technique would be that of his own style....

In Christ,

Master Phil Stewart

[KempoTiger]

Well for the most part he was criticizing the very existance of "styles" that focused on one or a few aspects of fighting, and stuck to an ideology along those lines.

I don't consider that to be necessarily traditional.

So you're saying he didn't really criticize traditional fighting techniques that much?

I suppose I should avoid using the word "traditional." It's comming across in a way that in hindsight wasn't intentional. I suppose the word I would be looking for is conventional.

Lee's philosophy was to become in tune with yourself, and find the most efficient way of movement and combat to work for you. Combining many theories of linear movement from Japanese systems and the flowing essence of Chinese styles, he came into his own and found what worked for him. He then sought to teach others to do the same.

Of course we can all agree that much of what he was speaking of, weren't exactly groundbreaking new ideas, but still he was the focal point of the rule-breaking new movement in the martial arts world.

[White Warlock]

Of course this is nothing new. A lot of the times Bruce Lee regurgitated enchante kung fu philosophy when explaining the chinese martial arts. He did this also, when describing his JKD. Many people wrongly mistook the "be like water"; "adapt"; "use what is useful and discard what is useless" etc.,etc. as JKD concepts when this concepts had existed in the chinese martial arts for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Agreed. Many attribute things to Bruce Lee, because it came out of his mouth, or because it is noted in one of his writings... but he is not the originator of such thoughts, nor even of such words. They can be found in books like Sun Tzu's Art of War, thought to have been written before 400 b.c. which, i'm sure you would agree, clearly predates Bruce Lee.

In section six, parts 27-29 of The Art of War, Sun Tzu writes:

• 27. Now an army may be likened to water, for just as flowing water avoids the heights and hastens to the lowlands, so an army avoids strength and strikes weakness.
   
  28. And as water shapes its flow in accordance with the ground, so an army manages its victory in accordance with the situation of the enemy.
   
  29. And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions.

Alot speaks of the water as though it was Bruce Lee who invented this concept. It was Yip Man who told him of this concept.

From what i understood, he gleaned it off of The Art of War.

I am not a Bruce Lee fan, nor have i spent an inordinate amount of time reviewing his movies.

Who said anything about doing that? I have only seen the film a few times, because it's a movie I like. The info I have stated about it, is something that was shown quite obvious through the course of the movie.

Relax, I was posing a disclaimer, not an inference.

I do find it interesting though. People have a tendency to hang on Bruce Lee's every word, and yet they've blown off the words of most every other martial artist.

You seem to be the entirely opposite. It sounds like you are an anti Bruce Lee.

It would be convenient to label me, but it is not the case. I merely found 'most' of his words to be 'not new.' Rehashed, sold to an eager audience, but not new. This is, in no way, trying to take away what he provided to the martial arts community. Because he was so vocal, so animated, and so personable, he helped to open up the Chinese arts to the Western world. The series he wrote, Kung Fu, had a major impact on many young audiences and had many thinking, "there's more to this than just screaming 'kiaa' and breaking boards." His movies excited many and actually helped to show that there are 'many' types of martial arts out there, not merely karate, judo, boxing and wrestling.

Of course we can all agree that much of what he was speaking of, weren't exactly groundbreaking new ideas, but still he was the focal point of the rule-breaking new movement in the martial arts world.

I think he's credited with this, but i'm not in agreement that he was the focal point. In fact, these things were happening in the martial arts world long 'before' he entered the picture. The difference is, the martial arts world was much smaller then. And yet, look at this list:

• aikido 1942
   
  cuong nhu 1965
   
  goju-ryu karate 1929
   
  goshin-jutsu 1952
   
  hakko-ryu jujutsu 1941
   
  hapkido 1940's
   
  isshinryu karate 1954
   
  judo 1882
   
  kobayashi-ryu karate (shorin-ryu) early 1900's
   
  koei-kan karate 1952
   
  kyokushinkai karate 1956
   
  matsubayashi-ryu karate (shorin-ryu) 1947
   
  matsumura orthodox (shorin-ryu) early 1900's
   
  renbukai karate 1950
   
  shorinji-ryu karate 1950's
   
  shorinji kempo karate 1946
   
  shotokan karate 1922
   
  shito-ryu 1930
   
  shukokai karate 1950
   
  sosuishitsu ryu jujutsu 1650
   
  tang soo do moo duk kwan 1945
   
  uechi-ryu karate 1924
   
  wado-ryu karate 1935-39

And that... is just a very small sample. During the 'first half' of the 20th century alone, far more than one hundred new systems/styles were devised and then popularized. During the 'second half,' probably two times as many... as the martial arts expanded beyond the constraints of the select few.

Jeet kune do... was conceived in 1967... and then disbanded in 1972. I think, by the presentation above, we can conclude that Bruce Lee was not the basis for innovative thinking in the martial arts. He merely caused a lot of 'laypersons' to think that he was a revolutionist in the martial arts world. What he was... was the loudest man on the block.

Wing chun, san soo, praying mantis, pa kua, hung gar, choy li fut, etc etc... all of these were Chinese innovations. There are always going to be people who become steadfast adherents to a particular style, because they take pride in keeping a particular style alive. In doing so, they honor the progenitors. To dismiss that, and say these people are 'rigid,' is to to not see far enough, deep enough... to see only through one's own goals and intentions, one's tinted lenses.

Bruce Lee screamed out for change, when change was already, and 'constantly,' happening in the martial arts. He dealt with only a few Chinese styles, and he found those styles to be too confining. Well, that's why everyone needs to find their own path. What works for the innovator of a system may not work for you, but if you start at nothing, you will arrive at nothing... so you build upon the paths of others. This... has always been the way with the martial arts and it is an injustice to all the great martial arts innovators of the past to give such credit to Bruce Lee.

More on topic:

Even with Okinawan te created since before 1470, karate was actually more a product of the 20th century, with many Okinawan and Japanese versions being founded between 1900 and 1960. It's important to remember that the Okinawan systems were all 'heavily influenced' by Chinese kung-fu masters that fled from China... to Okinawa. So really, i don't find much 'water' in Bruce Lee's generalizations. It was, as i said before, more a commercialization stunt than anything else.

[White Warlock]

Hmm, let me add to that list:

Gracie jujutsu 1925-35

 

kajukenbo 1947

 

sambo 1923

 

small circle jujutsu 1950

That's right, Gracie jujutsu (aka: bjj), arguably the most 'tradition shattering' of systems, was founded years before Bruce Lee was even born. Oh, and it was birthed from Jigoro Kano's judo. Indeed, all four of the innovative systems noted above, and for that matter every system noted in the previous list, were birthed from other systems. In some cases, a hybrid of other systems.

One innovative system devised from another innovative system, devised from many other innovative systems, etc ... and so on. The martial arts has been evolving for centuries, adjusting to the times, preferences, spiritual beliefs, technology, and trends.

[dippedappe]

Just for clarification, Chuck Norris' foundation style was TSD, he was an undefeated "karate" champion simply because that's what the tournaments were at the time, and he was not portrayed as a karate man in the movie. Coincidentally, his "student" in the movie (Bob Wahl, I think?) was his student in real life, and the shot of them arriving on the plane was actually them arriving in Italy for the filming - Bruce Lee taped them arriving, and wanted to use it in the movie, thus the last minute inclusion of Norris' "student" in the movie. Oh, and his technique, in the movie, was TSD. Not karate. Not only can I tell the difference, but the scene was choreographed by Lee and Norris together, without any other involvement, thus Norris' technique would be that of his own style....

In Christ,

Master Phil Stewart

I got the TKD info on https://www.ChuckNorris.com.

The Japanese MA in the film said something like this to Chuck right before Chuck taught him a lesson. It sounded something like this "who ta tu Karate bigger than Japanese." It was translated with something like this, "who is better at Karate than the Japanese." Chucks student referred to Chuck as Sensei, which is only used in Japanese schools I believe. Tang Soo Do doesn't look Japanese. Both Chuck Norris and the student and the Japanese was wearing Karate uniforms too.

Bruce Lee knew Karate and could have instructed Chuck in Karate moves. Another thing is that Bruce Lee was using Jeet Kune Do when he was portrait to use Gung Fu. Just as he has done in all his films. So Chuck Norris could of cause also use his own style and still have it referred to as Karate.

But I'm not saying that it was Karate he used in the film. Not anymore atleast. What I'm saying is that the audience was meant to think it was Karate.

Alot speaks of the water as though it was Bruce Lee who invented this concept. It was Yip Man who told him of this concept.

From what i understood, he gleaned it off of The Art of War.

I have read it from Tao of Jeet Kune Do I think, or it might have been in Tao of Gung Fu aswell. It was something like this...

Yip Man told Lee that he should "be like water", and then skip the WC lesson for the day to go and meditate on this. Lee then went to the water, I think it was in a boat. He got frustrated (I think) and then punched the water, and then he realized what his Sifu meant.

I am not a Bruce Lee fan, nor have i spent an inordinate amount of time reviewing his movies.

Who said anything about doing that? I have only seen the film a few times, because it's a movie I like. The info I have stated about it, is something that was shown quite obvious through the course of the movie.

Relax, I was posing a disclaimer, not an inference.

I didn't mean it to sound aggressive.

[Shorin Ryuu]

White Warlock:

Whenever I try and respond to this thread, you go and write a long, detailed post that states exactly what I wanted to say in excellent terms.

My hat's off to you.