Belt Testing Fees?

[White Warlock]

A testing fee is never a "bribe" to get to the next rank. Just because a student pays a testing fee does not influence whether or not he passes. (I have plenty of "no changes" at my testings)

I disagree. Partly because it 'can' be a bribe if a 'guarantee' is associated with paying the fee (and yes, there are those out there... plenty, in fact), and partly because one should not even be considered for testing if he/she is not considered by the instructor to be ready for a test.

I.e., if you are allowed to 'pay' to test, and yet are not ready, that is an injustice. Only the teacher, and possibly some of the high-ranking students, have the capability to 'gauge' if a particular student is ready to pass a test, and thus ready to take one. Also, if you must pay for 'each' time you test, what's the student's protection against a teacher who fails the students two or three times before allowing them to pass... thus obtaining 4 or 5 times the money per belt upgrade?!?

Corruption exists, because there are corrupt people. To deny this is to be a victim. As well, a corrupt person may not view his/her actions as being corrupt and may, in fact, consider it either part of a lesson or part of the way things are done... being that was how it was done to them. The cycle of abuse.

There is nothing wrong with an instructor charging for his services unless his services are not worth anything.

It is, indeed, very difficult for a student of 'one' school, having no other schools to compare with, to be able to determine if an instructor is 'worth' anything.

Some instructors may charge more for the monthly fee and nothing for testing, others charge less per month but charge a testing fee. Either way, the instuctor should be paid what he is worth. If his monthly fees + testing fees exceed his value, then don't train with him.

Agreed

In my own experience in suburban Dallas, martial arts training (including testing fees) cost less than tennis, dance, cheer, or gymnastic training. In my opinion, MA training is more valuable than any of those.

Ahh, but tennis, dance, cheer, and gymnastics don't require you to pay for testings. And while this is partly due to them not having 'ranks,' it is also partly due to the fact many 'present-day' martial arts studios have enacted ranks where there were none before, including adding more 'sub-ranks,' so as to provide more opportunities to 'test' for additional income.

Another point is, just because other people 'exploit' is no reason for martial artists to do so as well. And, i've noticed that 'private lessons' are actually the things that cost more, for good reason. So i'm not exactly comfortable with the examples posed. It is comparing private lessons of other endeavors with group lessons of the martial arts.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

There is nothing wrong with an instructor charging for his services unless his services are not worth anything. Some instructors may charge more for the monthly fee and nothing for testing, others charge less per month but charge a testing fee. Either way, the instuctor should be paid what he is worth. If his monthly fees + testing fees exceed his value, then don't train with him.--

OK, so using this logic, I charge $40/month for 2 two hour classes/week and don't charge testing fees. This means I'm not worth as much as an instructor that charges $100 (or more)/ month and high testing fees? Does paying more money mean better instruction? I think not.

[tkdBill]

OK, so using this logic, I charge $40/month for 2 two hour classes/week and don't charge testing fees. This means I'm not worth as much as an instructor that charges $100 (or more)/ month and high testing fees? Does paying more money mean better instruction? I think not.

Perhaps you don't charge what you are worth. Maybe the instructor that charges $100 is really good. Like anything else in life, there is no guarantee that you get exactly what you pay for.

My point is that just because an instructor gets part of his compensation in testing fees does not mean he is bad or unfair. For example, my testings are a big deal, including flying in a high ranking guest instructor to sit on the panel and perform a demonstration. Our association administers the ranks and certificates, and they charge a fee for that (as they should). Testing is a long and difficult day for me, and I get compensated (as I should).

A professional MA instructor should get paid what he is worth. MA students should not pay more than he is worth. It doesn't matter if part of his income is labeled "testing fees".

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[tkdBill]

White Warlock:

Sure there are people who will corrupt just about anything, including MA training and testing. That doesn't mean that honest people should not charge a fair price for their services.

People are not allowed to test if they are not ready. That said, my testings are still a real test, and at every testing there are those who do not pass even though they had the ability to pass. If they don't perform on testing day, they don't pass. Period. I don't charge a student to test a second time for the same rank.

I am not a dishonest person, so I can't be bribed for a rank. Any instructor who can be influenced to advance a person should not be testing anyone, or even instructing anyone. The students protection in all cases is to train under a competent and honest instructor. If you can't trust your instructor to test you fairly, how can you trust him enough to teach you MA?

Another point is, just because other people 'exploit' is no reason for martial artists to do so as well. And, i've noticed that 'private lessons' are actually the things that cost more, for good reason.

I don't think it is exploitation for those other pursuits to charge what they charge. If it's not worthwhile, people won't pay for it. Making a good living providing an excellent service is certainly honorable...even in MA instruction. I still think that my group MA training is more valuable than the cheer and dance training that may (or may not) include some private lessons. But then again, I'm biased toward martial arts.

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[White Warlock]

White Warlock:

Sure there are people who will corrupt just about anything, including MA training and testing. That doesn't mean that honest people should not charge a fair price for their services.

No argument there, but i wasn't referring to honest people.

People are not allowed to test if they are not ready.

In your school, but what about the thousands or so other schools that are doing so?

That said, my testings are still a real test, and at every testing there are those who do not pass even though they had the ability to pass. If they don't perform on testing day, they don't pass. Period. I don't charge a student to test a second time for the same rank.

That's good, and as it should be. Well, except for all this paying in the first place, but that particular point is more my peeve than anything morally inappropriate. I suppose you would say that, because of the 'capacity' and the 'tendency' for unscrupulous sorts to utilize belt testing fees in exploitive fashion, i would prefer it be removed entirely from the picture. I also see it as redundant, in that they are paying for lessons, and then must also pay to be tested so they could obtain ranks in the system they are already paying to learn. I'm sorry, but they don't even do that at the college level.

I am not a dishonest person, so I can't be bribed for a rank. Any instructor who can be influenced to advance a person should not be testing anyone, or even instructing anyone. The students protection in all cases is to train under a competent and honest instructor. If you can't trust your instructor to test you fairly, how can you trust him enough to teach you MA?

There are plenty of people who trust unscrupulous instructors. It's not a matter of the individuals, it's a matter of the whole. there is a problem out there, and it is this problem that i have a problem with. Although i am a firm believer in 'caveat emptor,' that does not remove the cape tied about my shoulders. I still have this incredible urge to 'save the day' for those being victimized.

I don't think it is exploitation for those other pursuits to charge what they charge.

If they charge too much, then yes, it is exploitation. In the case of cheerleaders and dance classes, it's very much like those unscrupulous acting agencies.. that take your money and don't ever open any doors for you. People take cheerleading and dance classes in the hopes they will get the 'big break' to stardom. But, if the training is substandard, and the price is high, then it is merely exploitation of people's fantasies.

If it's not worthwhile, people won't pay for it.

If that were only true. Unfortunately, people do pay for it, only to find out later that it is not worthwhile... or to find out later they could have obtained exactly the same thing, or something far better, for significantly less. Worse, however, is when they never find out they're being scammed.

Making a good living providing an excellent service is certainly honorable...even in MA instruction. I still think that my group MA training is more valuable than the cheer and dance training that may (or may not) include some private lessons. But then again, I'm biased toward martial arts.

I think martial arts training is invaluable... assuming the training is actually well presented. However, the discussion was about belt fees. testing fees, or anything remotely resembling belts, do not exist in golf, dance, cheer, or gymnastics. Indeed, they don't exist in most every type of sport or self-improvement program. And, if you attempt to compare it to obtaining a university degree, realize that students don't need to pay for testing, nor do they have to pay for graduation, although they do have to pay to rent the silly graduation outfit (but attending the graduation ceremony is not a requirement, so that point is moot as well).

[tkdBill]

White Warlock:

Your points are valid. As you point out, other activities do not charge for testing because they do not have testing. If they did, I'm sure they would. There is nothing wrong with that as long as they are up front with the total cost.

Testing fees are built into my business model (professionals of any sort should have a business model). There are also costs associated with testing. If I did not charge testing fees, I would have to build them into my monthly fees. Since some of my students train harder and test more frequently than others, it seems that it would be unfair to spread this cost over all students, even those who only test half of the time.

Monthly fees can be abused by corrupt people just as easily as testing fees. A corrupt instructor that does not charge testing fees is no better than one who does.

As long as they are in no way "promotion fees" people should not have a problem with them.

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[jaymac]

We have testing fees and I do not feel them to be unfair. They start at $15.00 and increase (not dramatically increase) as you continue to rank higher. It helps pay for the party afterwards, belt, and certificate. We also have to open the school on a non-traditonal day thus, the fee goes towards the heating for the winter day or the air condition on the summer day. It is not figured in tuition because it would be unfair for a student to pay ahead of time for a belt test that he/she may not even take. Also, we would never test anyone whom was not actually ready to be tested, so very few ever fail. The only ones who fail are ones who walk off during the testing and do not return (it happens--nerves I think). I don't criticize those who do not charge. It is up to them, but when you have 100 or so people in a dojo on one day to enjoy a testing and then eat pizza and pop at the dojos expense, then a small testing fee is a good thing.

[Fairfax_Uechi]

Hello,

I really like the instructor but I do not want to test unless I am

really ready for the next rank. Is this standard practice ? My wife sees it as sort of paying a bribe to get to the next rank. What do you think????

If your instructor is worth anything he/she won't invite you to test unless you are ready. Now an invitation doesn't mean that you'll pass, but the test should be a formality unless you royally mess up and/or don't prepare for the test.

Like others said, the fee should be for the time and expenses of the test, the test boards time, and any extra costs. But each school is different. For instance, I could teach for a nomial fee, then charge a higher test fee, or charge a little more in fees with low test fees, or I could charge nothing. It really depends on what I feel my time and effort is worth.

(BTW, in my case, I freely give private lessons and charge what someone can afford. Personally, I'm not teaching to earn money, but I do expect something for my time even if it's only symbolic).

[Red J]

And, if you attempt to compare it to obtaining a university degree, realize that students don't need to pay for testing, nor do they have to pay for graduation, although they do have to pay to rent the silly graduation outfit (but attending the graduation ceremony is not a requirement, so that point is moot as well).

I'm unmooting the point. Universities have more junk fees, but then again I have heard of McDojos that are so expensive that you would need a student loan. Point remooted.

I see both sides. I don't care for test fees, but I also see why they are necessary in some dojos. I take comfort in that every test that I have been to has had many higher ranking masters, they have been long in duration to exploit skill under pressure and fatigue, and have had a learning component attached to them.

I have also had tests that were free, but that was in the backyard dojo of my youth (late teens). No masters ever came, it was my instructor and myself. When I went to college you had to pay for the cost of the belt and certificate. I never tested because I was so broke and it was not my style. The University activity fee probably covered the cost of the class. I dropped the class and ended up working out with an Isshin Ryu shodan I met in the park 3x a week for about a year. Times were simple then. No belts, just two guys working out.

Anyway, the value of a test is really in the eye of the person paying for it (and in the pocket of the person collecting the fee. I added this because if I didn't someone else would. ) . Unfortunately, there are people who will take advantage in any profession. Hopefully this post will help you form your own opinion.

If your wife gives you any more grief, tell her that she is right and that you are quitting MA and buying a 25 foot Mako open fisherman, with twin Yamaha 250s on the back and plan to spend all your extra time fishing. This may put it back into perspective for her or it could have you spending more nights on the couch. The point being that MA is still a relatively inexpensive endeavor compared to what some of my friends do, but I will concede to WW that you need to be an educated consumer.

[jaymac]

Very well put Red J!