The Myths & Realities of The Knife

[Martial_Artist]

About the two previous posts. A cresent kick most times isn't very efficient. Unless you are very very fast. (ie. 0.3 sec on delivery or faster) You won't make contact in the time it takes the attacker to move his hand only a couple of inches to avoid your kick. This also puts your foot in a position to be cut. Ever had a tendon severed? I have had four severed. The second it is cut you lose 100% of movement that tendon is responsible for. There's not much skin around the ankle area. Lose a tendon there and you will go to the ground and probably end up dead. If you survive there is several months of therapy after surgery to recovery. Best bet don't put anything in the way of the blade. Even a 3 inch blade can cut deep enough.

 

All the knife fights I have been in(not too many mind you) and the ones my brother have been in(two) they have never lasted more than a few moments. Forget the whole stand off in stances and wait for the moment to attack. That only happens in dojos and movies. If he pulls the knife he may give you a threat and a second to comply and then he will attack you. The whole thing about keeping your distance is a dojo training trick. If the guy pulls a knife chances are he surprised you and cut you off so he could attempt his mug. If you want to keep distance keep an eye out on guys walking around you and don't give them the opportunity to head you off and pull the knife in that manner. When the fight starts you will be on top of each other in the blink of an eye.

 

Be faster than he is. Move before he does. If you don't get the chance hope you trained hard enough to be fast enough to react. You've got to hit hard and fast and it has to count. Efficient, efficacious, and direct. Fancy movements result in severed tendons, deep slash wounds, deep fascia damage. It's just a knife, a part of his hand, avoid it like you would a fist, don't touch it, focus on the guy holding the knife. The knife only does as much damage as he makes it do.

[Athorn4941]

Yeah Bon you got to be careful with people who lose concentration and and go off balance. when my brother and me practice knife fighting he will do these moves at a resepectable distance and i commit to closing in from to far he will get in 2-3 slashes in.

 

like martial artist says you have to be faster than he is. yeah i agree with martial artist on not putting personal info on computer. but i got my own reasons for it. i got lots of people that hate me but oh well.

[SBN Doug]

Few, I try and do a little yard work over the weekend and suddenly I find myself way behind on a topic I had been waiting weeks to get going again. :lol:

 

YODA, I'm not totally sure which exact motion his arm is making by your description. Is he coming downward with a diagonal stab, or upward with a diagonal slice?

 

We've got a few options for each, so I'll wait for clarification.

[YODA]

Hi Doug

 

Downward

 

 

[CTpizzaboy]

Martial Artist, I'll have to admit that its a lame attack, because no attacker would just strike only once in a real life situation. However, I read your first post and thought, "Is this guy some funking ninja? Why all these kicks to the head?" And what kind of kicks. You never mentioned. In your example, I would even have time to do a flying side kick to his head, compare to the amounts of kick that you threw. Then again, to me, it was all of air. In your latest post, you're warning about getting cut in the leg tendon and how bad that would be. Tendons don't gush out large amount of blood, main arteries and veins do. Sorry, bro, but you're bullsh*ting.

[YODA]

Martial_Artist - Now that's much better

 

I agree with most of what you say, apart from the "avoid the knife & treat it like a fist" thing. I believe that you must do these things and in this order unless you either very lucky or very skilled - and if given the chance for a "pot shot" I would take it...

 

- Avoid the strike

 

- Stop the limb

 

- Control the limb

 

- Do damage. Lot's of damage

 

- Disarm in a maner that gives YOU the knife.

 

Sounds complex but in reality takes only a few seconds if done efficiently.

 

The problem with a sharp knife over a fist is it only needs to move an inch by his design or by luck and it can cut you deeply - consider the damage a small craft knife or scalpel can do when flaied around at close range.

 

Given enough time & space (which as you say is rare) I would look for an equaliser. being proficient with a wide range of weapons I would look to either draw what I had or use something at hand to even the score.

 

Kicking a knife out of a hand is just suicide - I'll say no more an that one.

 

A final point - you say "I don't give information out over web boards like this. Call me paranoid" - Ok - you're paranoid

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Athorn4941]

You beat me to what i was going to say to look for an equalizer. Yes your jacket or simalar peice of clothing works wonders on trapping the arm knife. what better than an umbrela or cane for a long type of range weapon. even a breif case is a good weapon. when confronted by a knife dont forget your everyday items. what do you think nunchaku sai, came from you get the point.

[SBN Doug]

First I'll state that if I had the time to grab a rope, take off my jacket, or anything else to aid in defense I would. However, the situation here, as I understand it, is that you have no time to do anything but react.

 

For the downward stabbing motion, that I laughed my butt off watching Jim Carey try and teach on a In Living Color skit, we have four "basic" defenses. All include basically what YODA described. We basically step in and block fore arm to fore arm. Simultaneously, we either:

 

when bloking with right, left arm wraps behind his elbow (in the bend) and grabs our right forearm. Take another step forward, locking the arm backwards, and take them down. Pry/break the arm until the knife drops.

 

same as above, but blocking with the left.

 

block with right, countergrab wrist, lock elbow out stright to right as you step in behind elbow. Either "chicken wing" your elbow over theirs and drop them, breaking the arm or dislocating the shoulder, and get knife to drop from grip, OR knife hand to the pressure point just above the elbow, forcing them to the ground. Replace hand behind elbow with knee and pry/break arm to get knife released.

 

We build on these at higher levels, but I agree with YODA about posting too much on these boards.

[Martial_Artist]

On 2002-04-22 22:19, [CT]pizzaboy wrote:

 

Martial Artist, I'll have to admit that its a lame attack, because no attacker would just strike only once in a real life situation. However, I read your first post and thought, "Is this guy some funking ninja? Why all these kicks to the head?" And what kind of kicks. You never mentioned. In your example, I would even have time to do a flying side kick to his head, compare to the amounts of kick that you threw. Then again, to me, it was all of air. In your latest post, you're warning about getting cut in the leg tendon and how bad that would be. Tendons don't gush out large amount of blood, main arteries and veins do. Sorry, bro, but you're bullsh*ting.

 

Ooooo, bro. Like this PizzaBoy: if an attack is coming like in the post by YODA you asked what types of kicks I would do. Well without much thought it is a front kick. Ball of the foot(pull your toes back) As soon as you see this guy move, move with him and kick him either under the jaw, in the solar plexus(beneath the sternum), or better yet in the groin. I didn't say kick him in all three places. I just gave three options. And I think I'll mention that is one of many things you could do to an attack like that.

 

I never thought I would have to answer a medical question to an idiot, but I'll try. Get your tendon sliced my friend and you automatically lose use of that part of the limb. Forget trying to move it or force it to move with the adrenalin pumping through your body. You just won't be able to move or use it. Forget blood loss, you can fight around that and still have time. Get a tendon cut on the top of your leg or underneath and that foot becomes useless, also the pain of losing a tendon(your body will know) may put you into shock. Obviously, you've never been seriously cut. I have had four tendons severed, took a machete to the top of my right calf, and been speared once in my left abdomen. F the blood loss, it's movement loss. Be stupid enough to let your tendons(or ligaments, but it's a different thing altogether) get cut and you can kiss that fight goodbye. It's lights out for you.

 

Bullsh*tting my @$$. BTW, just for fun, when I had my four tendons severed, by a Paul Chen katana noless, there was quite a lot of blood and I almost lost my fingers. So don't talk my young one(referring to time in the martial arts). If you still think I'm BS'ing call any hand surgeon. Ask them. Upon cut you lose 50% of strength from that tendon once it's reattached, you have 4-7 days to get it reattached or you lose 100% recovery, it'll take 3-5 months of therapy to get movement back and that's just for hands. The moment it is cut you can't move the part of the body at all, no matter how hard you try. REASON: the tendon isn't there to facilitate joint movement.

 

Blood loss...in a knife fight you've got more important things to worry about than a little blood loss. Sure, I'm not undermining the effect an artery being cut has, but the number of readily accessible arteries compared with tendons that have little or no skin covering them is small. Yes cover your vitals, but don't be stupid enough to give them something to cut and disable.

 

[ This Message was edited by: Martial_Artist on 2002-04-23 09:33 ]

[Martial_Artist]

YODA, You called my paranoid J/k.

 

I'm going to have to agree with what you wrote, about certain steps to take in a knife fight. However, I am going to say that they apply in only certain applications and can't fully be applied in all. Meaning(not in all knife fights will you try to stop the limb or control the limb.) For instance the fight may ensue in a manner that allows you to blantantly just kick the other guy before the knife even enters a combat path. He could just pull it out and as you see him pulling it could just open with a front kick. Extraneous situations aside what you said was very logical.

 

That's right, if you can grab something nearby to use(stick, dirt, rocks, jacket, innocent passerby(j/k)) USE IT. Don't get all full in the head and think to be a real martial artist you have to take the guy empty-handed. That kind of attitude can you killed really easily. I'm not saying that because of anything you said YODA, but because other people are going to read this too.

 

Now I think I need to clarify what I meant about the knife/hand thing. It's a fear thing. When most people see a knife, especially a big one, there is a gut fear that enters them. There really is no need to fear that knife. I'd put more fear on the person holding that knife. Whether he's a skilled professional or psycho addict. Both can do much harm. There will be times when you must address that hand and the knife in it, but in my experience it is better to focus not on the knife(ie working to control) but on the attacker. Movement, cheating, etc. to neutralize him. Now on to analogy of knife and hand. That knife is nothing more than an extension of his hand. It can do nothing more than the hand holding it. The only difference is that it creates more damage upon impact. So if I enter the fight and recognize he has a knife, but don't view it as a knife to be feared, then it is just a longer hand that I don't want to get hit by. It's more of a mentality thing on how you mentally view the situation. One harboring fear the other dispelling it.

 

And yes, if at all possible when disarming get the knife in your possession. Remember though trying to pry a knife will more than likely end up with your hand with a nice cut and or severed tendons. If you're going to disarm, unless the situation dictates otherwise, get the knife away completely. And then use whatever's around you(including yourself) to beat him down.

 

So we proabably agree on methodology in many of the same aspects. i won't argue that. It's not about who's wrong, who's right, but communal learning. Our primary difference, unless otherwise noted, lies in the mentality of the fighter concerning the knife. Other than that, trying to effectively convey meaning and purpose by words alone is next to impossible. Very ineffective. However, I think some good things were brought up.

 

Pretty much the advice I would offer is:

 

-Move fast. Lightning fast. Faster than your opponent at least.

 

-Hit hard and make it count.

 

-K.I.S.S. Don't worry about the fancy moves. Kick to the groin, solar plexus, etc. Hit with purpose of knocking him down.

 

-Cheat. If he cheats(fights dirty) and you die there is no ref to cry foul and restart the match. You're dead he wins. Fight to win, to save your life. There are no rules. The honor is preserving your life from a thug.

 

-If the situation permits isolate and disable the attacking limb and gain control of weapon.

 

See, pretty similar. Our philisophies differ somewhat. When i teach something I assume the person going to perform it has conditioned himself to do it as I teach it. It don't teach watered down technique to those who aren't physically able. I'm not saying you do either, just clarifying why it seems everything I say requires the practioner to be a really good fighter.