Where is the power in Wing Chun?

[KungFuLuvva]

i was referencing to western boxing. ill use the word pugilism if i want to include all fist styles...just so we're clear on termonology. wing chun punch is definately not a jab, and you do not have to be walking in motion to utilize its full potential, thus teh one inch wing chun punches that we see from masters. the punch can be used from many angles, from laying down flat on your back, to invading with a full body motion. it looks weaker than a boxing punch because it erases all of the unnecesary body motion that is wasted energy. if you shoved someone as hard as you could with your hand in the form of a fist, the impact wouldn't hurt at all. thats because its pushing power rather than explosive penetrating power. boxing punches all have some pushing power in them, thus the swinging of the punching bag. a perfected WC punch however, minimalizes the amount of pushing power with mechanical efficiancy, and thus you are left with a very explosive and penetrating style of pugilism. this is probably the most difficult part of develping WC skill, and when you try to imitate it, it will definately feel weaker your first time practicing it, but thats only because you're not used it or developed enough in the areas you need for it. the reason it isn't a jab is becuase jabs are executed when the body is angled from the opponent, WC punches are made with your shoulders more squared off from the opponent, and are meant to do damage, not poke like jabs do. the form of jab that is used in WC is kind of a backfist thing.

[daedelus4]

WC punch a backfist? Wow that is a first! I have never heard aWC punch compared to a backfist before

[ovine king]

...depends on your angle.....

i've never been keen on labeling things in wing chun as ever being a fixed thing thus a punch in wing chun is never, in my mind, called a wing chun punch. In class, i never say "you can punch" instead choosing to say "you can hit".

that leaves it up to other people watching to fill in the gaps themselves and get them visualising things for themselves.

if you look at everything involving the arms, you will see that fundementally, there are only three types of arm movments when extending: wrist vertical, wrist flat facing floor and wrist flat facing the sky (all three being dependent on your elbow postion and where your hand is to begin with as well)

the only thing that changes is how you have your hand.

as i alluded to at the start of this post, a punch in wing chun can be a back fist, depending on your angle..... and how you are closing the gap.

[KungFuLuvva]

eh... no thats not how i meant, the backfist in wing chun is different from its normal punch, they use a backfist like punch as a jab when ur angled off to an opponent, its a more advanced thing. the normal wing chun punch is the same at all angles, but can look different dpending on teh distance, even tho it carries the same mechanicism. the backfist and the normal wing chun punch are 2 different things.

here's an ok thread on the wing chun punch http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=7021&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[ovine king]

actually, my backfist isn't that different to my normal punch (and by punch, i don't mean that chain punching malarky)

the thing that makes it a backfist is how it travels regarding to the the bridge and the centreline; the driving mechanism is pretty much the same.

even then, what i said before still holds true; it is only a backfist because i choose to hold a fist.

it could just as easily be a biu sau to jut or faat sau to step-in elbow.

the arm movement is still the same.

on the other hand, a lap could just easily be a downwards backfist on their bridge with pretty much the same effect.

with regards to punching, a rising palm could just as easily be a rising punch.

my point is, it's never easy to label things in wing chun because anything can be everything else. Its the nature of the style and its methods and to label something as a backfist and something as being more advanced in terms of a technique (instead of what it is trying to achieve) is slightly flawed.

[KungFuLuvva]

ahhhh...not really. ok this back fist im talkin about is like when ur standing angular form the opponent and its a snap out from ur elbow, the elbow, unlike a regular WC punch, moves out like the hinge on a door. its a jab, and you cant do it if ur squared off from the opponent. the reason i said its more advanced is because i dont know a lot of WC pple that know it. i know it from my dad that took it for about 9 years, so i guess that was just an assumption on my part. and then there is the backfist were u hit the person standing behind you, this is in WC as well. this backfist jab im talkin about in no way shape or form looks liek a normal WC centerline punch, believe me.

[daedelus4]

okay maybe my boxing coach when I was younger taught me wrong, I can live with that seeing that I left boxing never to return but I have never seen a jab that, like WC, uses the elbow for power. It's always the hips, and shoulders with a slight rotation of the fist when contact is made to try to get an abrasion going on the other guys face. And isn't a backfist the punch that starts at one side of your face/shoulders before it is extended out, using the back side of your fist? Does not sound like WC at all

[dippedappe]

it's a translation thing.

in chinese, hand-work and foot-work are often considered separate things, as is other aspects of fighting and as such, have their own terms

i.e chin-na, chuan-fa, tui-fa.

boxing is merely the closest english term for chuan-fa. remember kids, don't use an english dictionary to try to find the meaning of something that is chinese; you'd often get it wrong. the same goes for films. unless you are listening and understand the film in it's original language, you are probably not getting the proper meanings/understanding.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the Drunken Fist styles are referred to as Drunken Boxing among other names in the English/American "language". And I wasn't trying to use an English dictionary to find a Chinese word. I was putting a Chinese name into an English category.

KungFuLuvva...about that Jab, WC punch business. When I was asking about what was the most powerful punch, I wasn't referring to the jab in boxing. The jab is more of an "icebraker" than a damage dealer. I was talking about the normal strait punch (I believe it's called a cross) and hook they use.

[ovine king]

eh... no thats not how i meant, the backfist in wing chun is different from its normal punch, they use a backfist like punch as a jab when ur angled off to an opponent, its a more advanced thing. the normal wing chun punch is the same at all angles, but can look different dpending on teh distance, even tho it carries the same mechanicism. the backfist and the normal wing chun punch are 2 different things.

firstly, we are talking about (almost) two different things but there is some overlap. The first example of a backfist (does the term back fist actually even exist in chinese cos i can't think of it) is my example of a faat sau with a fist instead of an open hand (and different wrist position which again, i mentioned earlier). Again, the important thing isn't the technique itself but rather what it is doing. I have always been taught things by way of movements in relation to space and timing. The backfist you describe, in my mind would be something that crosses the centre from the "wrong" outside gate and whether or not it is a backfist no longer is important. Instead, what becomes important is the crossing/covering of the gate, the path along/across the centre (regaining the centre: a biu gee thing so yes, it can be considered a more advanced thing)and the timing of it and hence position of elbow

i.e do i move elbow first to open, or retain elbow and just pop the faat sau movement and let the hand clear?

as for your second example of a back fist, i'm not sure i agree with what (i think) you are describing. Is this a pure swinging type back hand or a turn then (again) faat sau with a closed fist? where does your hand end up? where does the arm movement begin.

in any case, i also want to add that you're not exactly understanding (or perhaps you just haven't shown that you understand) what a jab in boxing is for. A jab is something you throw to test, to probe, to set up. Nothing in wing chun does that. Everything you do has to be commited and only changes if you need it to change. You don't throw something to test because that is considered wasted movement.

the ironic thing this, while their use and intention is different, the average boxer's jab is performed in a very similar way to a standard chung chui, albeit with a different hip position/stance.

[daedelus4]

I have to agree with Ovine in his description of a backfist as similar to a fut sao that improperly comes across the outside gate and that a jab is basically to set an opponent up for a more powerful punch or test test the waters so to speak and that WC does not do that. At least nothing I am aware of. Even in a boxing right or left cross the power generated is accomplished by movement of the hip and shoulder instead of the entire body so I still in my own biased opinion think the WC punch is both more powerful and effective because given the same distance a WC punch will generate more power, all other variables such as strength of the puncher or body type being even, because of the technique behind the punch