What do you think a Black Belt should signify to others?

[Manabimasho1]

Ok I know that this post will upset alot of people and the replies will be mixed and varied, but I just have to set an example on this one.

The style I teach does not give Black Belts to any student under 18.

We do not give BB out to anyone who can't pass our BB Test

We feel that a BB should be able to handle a bigger oppenant.

In our BB test it is ran like a Military Drill, and one part of the test for BB 1st degree is to fight a person coming at you with a knife, baseball bat, and then two unarmed persons. You must get them to tap 2 times in a row and this is done over n over n over till you pass.

Our system is way to hard for the average person and I admit it's not for the faint of heart.....but even I have respect for anyone with a BB in another other style or system. But I refused to acknowledge a 17 year old or younger with a BB.

With that being said..........don't complain and quote me because its clear what I said.....but in your school what do you feel a BB should do to earn thier BB in a street fight or competition.

Just reply with what your schools vitures and rules and ideas are on about the Black Belts there........thank you everyone because I seem to deffinatly be on page 301 when others are on page 12.....

I wrote this because I have seen an Alarming number of kids under 15 claiming they have a BB in thier school.......search the forums you will see them.

If your school is about the basics of M.A.

Then shouldn't a BB be able to execute those moves properly to the average joe on the street?

If your school is about sport and sparring rules.

Ok good then shouldn't your BB be able to beat any lower ranking belt in a sparring contest?

If your school is aimed at RL self defense and protetion

Ok then shouldn't your BB be able to fend off 2 or more attackers and atleast seriously hurt an unarmed bigger oppenant.

Yeah so why are all these 15 year olds getting Black Belts, I read one girl who was age 11 and got hers!!!!!!! Unless thier area is over ran by the Oompa Lumpas and the average 10 year old is the mugger on the streets then why is this happening? Please tell me I am not the only hardcore Dedicated Martial Artist here!!!

[ShotokanKid]

But I refused to acknowledge a 17 year old or younger with a BB.

I wrote this because I have seen an Alarming number of kids under 15 claiming they have a BB in thier school.......search the forums you will see them.

Yeah so why are all these 15 year olds getting Black Belts, I read one girl who was age 11 and got hers!!!!!!! Unless thier area is over ran by the Oompa Lumpas and the average 10 year old is the mugger on the streets then why is this happening? Please tell me I am not the only hardcore Dedicated Martial Artist here!!!

Wow, you have a problem with young martial artists. What's wrong with a young MA dedicating themselves and earning a rank. I agree that 11 is pretty young for a black belt, but a black belt is just a strip of cloth. You can buy one from a MA distributer. A black belt is more of a mental mindset than it is a piece of black cloth. You can achieve this mindset early on.

In your other post about young martial artists in "So, how old is everyone here" you say that young black belts have more of a chance of getting themselves killed or hurt by a false sense of pride and in this one, you're talking about an "average joe on the street" and "beat any lower ranking belt in a sparring contest" and "seriously hurt an unarmed bigger oppenant"

A black belt should understand that the untimate aim of martial arts in to not have to use them. Rather than try to defend yourself against a robber who wants your money, just give him your money. A black belt should be peaceful and learn to solve things without force (like the example above)

If a black belt isn't peaceful, (s)he doesn't deserve it.

As IsshinRyu5toforever's signature says, the ultimate aim of a warrior is to lay down his weapons.

[Enviroman]

But I refused to acknowledge a 17 year old or younger with a BB.

I wrote this because I have seen an Alarming number of kids under 15 claiming they have a BB in thier school.......search the forums you will see them.

Yeah so why are all these 15 year olds getting Black Belts, I read one girl who was age 11 and got hers!!!!!!! Unless thier area is over ran by the Oompa Lumpas and the average 10 year old is the mugger on the streets then why is this happening? Please tell me I am not the only hardcore Dedicated Martial Artist here!!!

Wow, you have a problem with young martial artists. What's wrong with a young MA dedicating themselves and earning a rank. I agree that 11 is pretty young for a black belt, but a black belt is just a strip of cloth. You can buy one from a MA distributer. A black belt is more of a mental mindset than it is a piece of black cloth. You can achieve this mindset early on.

In your other post about young martial artists in "So, how old is everyone here" you say that young black belts have more of a chance of getting themselves killed or hurt by a false sense of pride and in this one, you're talking about an "average joe on the street" and "beat any lower ranking belt in a sparring contest" and "seriously hurt an unarmed bigger oppenant"

A black belt should understand that the untimate aim of martial arts in to not have to use them. Rather than try to defend yourself against a robber who wants your money, just give him your money. A black belt should be peaceful and learn to solve things without force (like the example above)

If a black belt isn't peaceful, (s)he doesn't deserve it.

As IsshinRyu5toforever's signature says, the ultimate aim of a warrior is to lay down his weapons.

You don't think some of his post has some merit? I've met more than my fair share of young black belts that think they can take on the world. I know a 30-something 115 lb. woman with a blackbelt in TKD that always tells people "I'm not afraid to walk around the city after dark...I'm a black belt!" Do you seriously believe that she would be able to defend herself against one or more attackers that outweigh her by 70-130 pounds? Probably not...but she thinks she can (hence, the overconfidence argument).

I'm not against young people studying martial arts. I do think that many of the young people awarded black belts don't deserve them. Sure there will be those that are completely proficient in their forms and requirements for black belt (and that even respect their art and know enough that they aren't superman) but those are few and far between. I'm willing to bet that your average 14-year-old with a blackbelt will overestimate his or her abilities and underestimate his or her opponent's abilities. It has more to do with age and maturity than anything.

But, then again, quite a few of the people on this board (possibly a majority) are under 18 and will vehemently oppose this with anecdotal and biased evidence...

[Manabimasho1]

But I refused to acknowledge a 17 year old or younger with a BB.

I wrote this because I have seen an Alarming number of kids under 15 claiming they have a BB in thier school.......search the forums you will see them.

Yeah so why are all these 15 year olds getting Black Belts, I read one girl who was age 11 and got hers!!!!!!! Unless thier area is over ran by the Oompa Lumpas and the average 10 year old is the mugger on the streets then why is this happening? Please tell me I am not the only hardcore Dedicated Martial Artist here!!!

Wow, you have a problem with young martial artists. What's wrong with a young MA dedicating themselves and earning a rank. I agree that 11 is pretty young for a black belt, but a black belt is just a strip of cloth. You can buy one from a MA distributer. A black belt is more of a mental mindset than it is a piece of black cloth. You can achieve this mindset early on.

In your other post about young martial artists in "So, how old is everyone here" you say that young black belts have more of a chance of getting themselves killed or hurt by a false sense of pride and in this one, you're talking about an "average joe on the street" and "beat any lower ranking belt in a sparring contest" and "seriously hurt an unarmed bigger oppenant"

A black belt should understand that the untimate aim of martial arts in to not have to use them. Rather than try to defend yourself against a robber who wants your money, just give him your money. A black belt should be peaceful and learn to solve things without force (like the example above)

If a black belt isn't peaceful, (s)he doesn't deserve it.

As IsshinRyu5toforever's signature says, the ultimate aim of a warrior is to lay down his weapons.

First off let me say that the Belt is an achievement you get for becoming good at your martial arts or self defense and signifies the road ahead to Master! So what you are saying is it's ok to give skilless students this idea that they can properly defend thierself.......and this is not a pride thing about a belt!

I am very concerned for the kids getting false ideas. You speak about having a peacefull mindset, that comes only after learning and knowing you can beat your oppenant and after you fear them no more. But for an 11 year old to think they know how to affectively defend theirself and not fear a kidnapper is a false sense of hope.

I love to hear people talk about how Martial Arts aim is learning how to be peacefull in bad situations. It is well stated in Eastern Zen that One must know war before one can achieve peace. He who Kills the Tiger now knows what Life is worth. .....For some reason too many schools are skipping that training of fear control and trying to skip to becoming a monk of Peace.

I don't have a problem with Dedicated martial artists, or Kids, I have a problem seening a 15 or 16 year old who has a 2-5 th degree Black Belt who runs and hides all day and gets depressed due to bullies at High School and comes in with a Gun.

Notice how many people read this forum and how many actualy responded! Either they agree with me or know that if they protest me it will get them laughed at. Please Instructors teach your kids properly!

[Enviroman]

But I refused to acknowledge a 17 year old or younger with a BB.

I wrote this because I have seen an Alarming number of kids under 15 claiming they have a BB in thier school.......search the forums you will see them.

Yeah so why are all these 15 year olds getting Black Belts, I read one girl who was age 11 and got hers!!!!!!! Unless thier area is over ran by the Oompa Lumpas and the average 10 year old is the mugger on the streets then why is this happening? Please tell me I am not the only hardcore Dedicated Martial Artist here!!!

Wow, you have a problem with young martial artists. What's wrong with a young MA dedicating themselves and earning a rank. I agree that 11 is pretty young for a black belt, but a black belt is just a strip of cloth. You can buy one from a MA distributer. A black belt is more of a mental mindset than it is a piece of black cloth. You can achieve this mindset early on.

In your other post about young martial artists in "So, how old is everyone here" you say that young black belts have more of a chance of getting themselves killed or hurt by a false sense of pride and in this one, you're talking about an "average joe on the street" and "beat any lower ranking belt in a sparring contest" and "seriously hurt an unarmed bigger oppenant"

A black belt should understand that the untimate aim of martial arts in to not have to use them. Rather than try to defend yourself against a robber who wants your money, just give him your money. A black belt should be peaceful and learn to solve things without force (like the example above)

If a black belt isn't peaceful, (s)he doesn't deserve it.

As IsshinRyu5toforever's signature says, the ultimate aim of a warrior is to lay down his weapons.

First off let me say that the Belt is an achievement you get for becoming good at your martial arts or self defense and signifies the road ahead to Master! So what you are saying is it's ok to give skilless students this idea that they can properly defend thierself.......and this is not a pride thing about a belt!

I am very concerned for the kids getting false ideas. You speak about having a peacefull mindset, that comes only after learning and knowing you can beat your oppenant and after you fear them no more. But for an 11 year old to think they know how to affectively defend theirself and not fear a kidnapper is a false sense of hope.

I love to hear people talk about how Martial Arts aim is learning how to be peacefull in bad situations. It is well stated in Eastern Zen that One must know war before one can achieve peace. He who Kills the Tiger now knows what Life is worth. .....For some reason too many schools are skipping that training of fear control and trying to skip to becoming a monk of Peace.

I don't have a problem with Dedicated martial artists, or Kids, I have a problem seening a 15 or 16 year old who has a 2-5 th degree Black Belt who runs and hides all day and gets depressed due to bullies at High School and comes in with a Gun.

Notice how many people read this forum and how many actualy responded! Either they agree with me or know that if they protest me it will get them laughed at. Please Instructors teach your kids properly!

While I agree with some of your post, I strongly disagree with your mindset. Especially that last paragraph...totally juvenile.

[Manabimasho1]

While I agree with some of your post, I strongly disagree with your mindset. Especially that last paragraph...totally juvenile.

Due to people attacking me on other forums post and here they have turned it into a display of kiddy stuff. I am not here to upset anyone I am trying to speak out against improper training. Yes my last statement was harsh, but did you read the next sentence?

The forums are about protecting and saving lives, and someone keeps misreading and misinterrputing what I am saying. It is not about the belt, at the Hall of Fame most masters will yell at you if your Belt hits the ground or is improperly tied, I think it has come down to a small form of Idolism. I don't care about the Belt, or the papers, or the certificates, or trophies, but do some people when they get these things they think it makes them a warrior of the streets, I have seen alot of Martial Artists get hurt because they thought they could defend thierself.

[ShotokanKid]

Black Belt is the beginning. I don't think I know anyone who isn't afraid of being kidnapped. Plus, there is no effective defense against a speeding bullet, a common muggers weapon, except for a bullet proof vest and a shield, but nobody actually carries those around except SWAT.

I don't care if you laugh at me.

[Manabimasho1]

No I only laugh at those who teach to strip and disarm pistols and upon doing so they are pointing the barrel of the pistol at thier body through 1/2 the move.

I think you are understanding what I am getting to. If you live in a non-violent area and there are dojos that give out BB's to kids then whatever. But I actualy see kids and adults think that because they have a year or so in MA or boxing that they can defend in the clubs vs multiple attackers and they fight instead of letting the bouncers and security boot em all out.

I am just against non realistic moves and ideas vs the real world

Call me insaine, but I believe in keeping the Marital Laws and Sciences in Martial Arts....by the way. Martial = Warfare/Combat to those of you who don't know.

I will stop replying because I am not trying to have an arguement I just am very very disappointed at the Masters, Grandmasters, and Dojos when I see children with Black Belts and bragging on thier so-called skills.

that was not intended at you either- We have a 16 year old in our Childrens class she is going to do a Demonstration at the Hall of Fame for W.H.F.S.C. in Orlando Florida, we don't coragraph or do fake stuff and She throws full sized adults around. I know that years of learning = Skill.

I just get upset at those with no clue and who freeze up thinking they are Bruce Lee.

[ShotokanKid]

LIke I said, my dojo has had ONLY 2 youth black belts.

And, we don't practice disarming guns.

[Shorin Ryuu]

As far as not responding, it's only been about half a day since you first posted. Second of all, it's a pretty well-worn topic, so don't be surprised if people pass it over.

I am in favor of demystifying the black belt. On one hand, it doesn't make you a master. On the other hand, you should have some modicum of skill which denotes you should be fairly competent against facing random aggression.

You also have to put this in perspective. In most places that use belts in the Orient, black belt doesn't mean too much. Everyone has a relative that has one. It doesn't mean they suck per se, but the requirements are much less stringent than they are at some places in the US or elsewhere. I've talked to quite a few Okinawans and Japanese and they always remark on how they have heard how hard it is to get a black belt in the states. And this really gets to the crux of the argument. In culturally-Confucian groups like martial arts in the Orient, it's more about the time you have put into it rather than your "rank". They don't care if you are a shodan, an ikkyu or a godan. There may be some disparity in skill level if you match people of these ranks with the "average" person of the West, but what is more important is simply the time spent doing the art and the skill obtained.

In other words, by making it so much harder to get a black belt (either by very long time requirements or just an extremely strenuous test which people will pass anyway as long as they don't "give up"), you build up an unhealthy mystique about the "black belt". In the East, they really don't tend to have this because to them it isn't a big deal. In places where this mystique exists, you have a wide disparity of the "quality" of people at shodan level and the expectation that they should all be "really good".

Another thing: people tend to associate the shodan level with some magical switch where all of a sudden your perspective and approach to training changes. This is pure * in my opinion. With the exception of younger kids (yes, there are exceptions...but that is what they are, not the rule), people should be able to exercise a critical eye and analytic approach for their martial arts development from day one. Perhaps it is simply evidence of a growing culture of those who simply lack critical thinking skills. As the age for entering martial arts is quite young nowadays, that is pretty natural. Most people don't develop this until they are in their late teens, twenties or not at all. It isn't realistic to expect five-year-old Timmy or 14-year-old Laura to have them.

The other facet is character development, often toted as part of the spirituality of martial arts. Perhaps inculcating desireable character traits is a plus to martial arts training, but there isn't any magical threshold. Some people have it before they take up martial arts, some develop it, some never do. It has no relation upon their actual skill in fighting. Those that do not tend not to stick around too long in "traditional martial arts" (whatever that appellation means, anyway). As I explained in my much passed-over article posted a bit ago ("Who put the 'Traditional' in 'Traditional Karate'"), there is a definite need to differentiate between what is intrinsic to traditional martial arts and what is intrinsic to Confucian societies in the spirituality aspect. Truly traditional Okinawans would remark upon a fighter lacking desireable character traits as being an incomplete person rather than an incomplete martial artist.

Back specifically to the level of shodan. Since everyone has different standards for what the level should be, it highlights the fact that it means virtually nothing. You would assume there is some sort of correlation of skill and rank even in the roughest sense, but extremes on both ends tend to skew even this much when talking about cross-style and cross-school comparison. As I belong to a pretty healthy organization, there is a strong correlation between rank and skill, with exceptions here and there. But the relative nature of belts in the end renders the whole debate almost fruitless in any attempt to make a gold standard for what it should be. In the end, it boils down to whatever the school/organization wants it to be. And, in the end again, the rank doesn't mean anything when you are forced to use your skills. Yes, the ultimate aim is not to use it, blah blah blah, but I am talking about the situation where you haven't got much of a choice at all. That argument tends to always be used as a safety net..."Well, you shouldn't be using your skills anyway if you are aiming for the highest level of proficiency"... Fine and good, but if all arguments reduced to that, these would be rather boring forums indeed.

In case you were all wondering, I tested for my black belt which included a "skill portion" and then a rather pointless (from my perspective) exercise/exhaustion portion. I had already long since been to basic training and all that several years ago at that point, so it felt rather ridiculous and almost annoying. My original instructor had me test with his instructor for it which was nice, but I've long since developed an almost distaste for the notion of "testing" for a rank. As long as you are testing under people who know you (and even if you aren't in most cases), you usually will never ever be tested unless you have the proper skill level (whatever that is for your organization). Therefore the "test" seems to be a pointless exercise in adding more externalization to your individual skill, which is something very internal. My current instructor (my first instructor and I have moved due to the nature of our profession and still keep in cordial and frequent contact) doesn't even test people. He believes (as I did before I even met him) you test when you come to practice and he sees you. When he feels you are ready, he gives you the rank. Maybe it doesn't satisfy the hyper-sensitive, hyping-sensitive nature of many people, but I don't think that should be the point. If you're still worried about the color of your belt by the time you hit shodan, you've got a long way to go (I think the awareness should be built in from day one that black belt doesn't mean anything rather than "by the time you get it you realize it").

I could go on and on, and often do. My main point is this: What does black belt mean? I really don't care what it means...