Shotokan a weak style?

[Skeptic 2004]

TBH You cant base an opinion on Shotokan through observation alone.

Short of actually training Shotokan, someone would be really hard pressed to have any other kind of way to evaluate it if their opinions couldn't be based on observation.... If I have spare time I might actually go train it just to see.

You are obeserving pre 1st dan Basics.

The guys I watched were pretty high dans in JKA (the chief instructor is 8th dan). If their foundation is based on these "poor" body mechanics (short of actually training it, I really can't see the good derived from their movement, stances, and posture in places), that might explain a lot of what I observed.

To addresss McShotokan worries, they share the dojo my club trains in (hence my ability to watch them practice), and I assure you they are not a McShotokan place. These guys are old school (and literally "old"...40's-50's-ish with the chief instructor in his late 60's), hardcore, traditional guys. But my observation of their movements still stands.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I believe what Skeptic2004 is trying to explain is some things along the same lines that I posted in this thread with the topic "Whats the difference between Okinawan and Shotokan".

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=18075&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

I posted very specifically my opinion point-by-point. Pers and I essentially agreed to disagree, but if you want to know my opinion, it is detailed with some depth in that post.

[Sauzin]

One of the major problems I have with many styles of karate is that it is extraordinarily rigid until post-blackbelt levels (in some cases it is always rigid). Many BB forms show the "soft core" of the style...but why wait so long to reach that soft core?

Thats just the way of karate, Cant run before you can walk mentality. Not many people start karate and have the dedication to reach BB. When you get to 1st Dan you are just considered to be a 'serious' student and you start learning the 'good' stuff. BB is just the beginning in Shotokan Karate.

Actually there are a lot of Okinawan styles that aren't ridged to begin with. Heck in the Meibukan Goju-ryu I practiced we had drills that specifically worked softness and I never made it above green belt in that system. In the system I practice now hard and soft are taught simultaneously though it is generally accepted that softness takes a little longer to get the hang of. Still we aren't ridged. We don't fight that way and we don't practice kata that way.

Now yes I will admit that's the way Shotokan does it. In fact if you look at most Japanese karate that's the way they do it. Start hard and get soft. But that's certainly not a generalization you can make about karate as a whole.

[Sauzin]

As far as biomechanics go I'll say this. It seems to me that different styles have different goals in regards to biomechanics. You can't just one, two, or even three things about a style and say "that stance is weak" or "that maneuver is weak" or "that biomechanical structure is weak". You have to look at what the style is working to accomplish as a whole. Because every style has a slightly different strategy to it.

For example, about 90% of Shorin-ryu styles likes to keep their back perpendicular and straight in relation to the ground. There's no arguing against the fact that having a straight back as opposed to a slight cant forward makes you weaker against opposing force coming at you from the front. If I were short sighted I would say that all Shorin-ryu styles that practice this have weak stances as a result. But there are those here who know better. Having a perpendicular back makes you less committed, slightly faster, and more able to react, change directions, and reposition. It is also good for energy work which is why tai-chi practitioners use it as well.

So it's not about one particular thing being weaker. It's about what they are using it for. That's why I like to withhold judgement on specific "biomechanical structures" until I know enough about the style to see the bigger picture. While there are styes out there with a less refined bigger picture then others, most styles that are being practiced by hundreds or more of individual who have dedicated their whole lives to understanding martial arts, have their reasons for doing what they do. I'm certainly not going to assume that I know better after only 9 years of practicing. All I know is how and why what I do works. The rest I trust with others who do the same.

[wyx]

TBH You cant base an opinion on Shotokan through observation alone.

Short of actually training Shotokan, someone would be really hard pressed to have any other kind of way to evaluate it if their opinions couldn't be based on observation.... If I have spare time I might actually go train it just to see.

You are obeserving pre 1st dan Basics.

The guys I watched were pretty high dans in JKA (the chief instructor is 8th dan). If their foundation is based on these "poor" body mechanics (short of actually training it, I really can't see the good derived from their movement, stances, and posture in places), that might explain a lot of what I observed.

To addresss McShotokan worries, they share the dojo my club trains in (hence my ability to watch them practice), and I assure you they are not a McShotokan place. These guys are old school (and literally "old"...40's-50's-ish with the chief instructor in his late 60's), hardcore, traditional guys. But my observation of their movements still stands.

So you where watching high dan shotokan peeps doing shotokan basics. Yes thats how we do it and all classes will have basics no matter what grade you are, they are drilled into you every class.

I can agree that this will look unuseable in RL situations but we do the moves like this as a means to an end, I wouldnt agree that they are 'poor' body mechanics tho, can you explain again what you mean by this statement?. Have you observed any kumite, Throws, grabs, chokes?

This sort of stuff is only really teached from BB in Shotokan, where as I believe this sort of thing is taught earlier in okinawan styles along with pressure points i.e Shotokan is more kiddie friendly as Funokoshi wanted it to be.

lets not start shorin vs Shotokan wars. Shorin ryu to me looks very intersting and I would like to try the style but there isnt many clubs in England to train in it. I like the way that in shorin kata you seem to implement the bunkai in the actual kata rather than in Shotokan we simplify the move but the bunkai remains the same.

If I was to make a statement based on observing Shorin ryu I could say that it looks lazy and weak compared with shotokan, but I cant having trained in the style, justify myself.

[shotochem]

Gentlemen,

May I jump in.

I have been training in Shotokan for 6yrs now and have just joined up with an Okinawian Kenpo group. I believe I can give some firsthand info on this one as I am cross training.

In regards to Shotokan, it is not a weak style per say as it has very powerful striking techniques. It is however very linear in it's movements and in a restrictive way very platform dependent. I noticed these differences when I actually sparred with my new group. The rules were different the results were way different.

In Shotokan you can't attack to the lower limbs and groin and most sparring is controlled and rarely full contact ( I know we do hit each other but not this hard ).

Okinawian Kempo not only allows low kicks and grion strikes, it encourages them. They go all out full contact. They wear full armor ( face shield, chest protector, groin guard (make sure it's a good one!!!!),

hand and foot protectors. The sparring includes stand up fighting taken to the ground until finishing. Joint locks, choke outs, submissions.

OK also uses a more diverse arsenal of hand techniques for day one than you do in Shotokan as the more advanced hand techniques are not really used all that much. Shotokan= empty hand no weapons. OK= we like weapons and anything else to pummel you with.

The weakness in the OK system IMO is that they are not as strong in their stances and do not have the explosiveness of the Shotokan karateka. I seemed to have success when I drove in on my combos to get in to sweep where I was less likely to be swept due to my stronger stance.

But.... They are very good on the ground. Most Shotokan guys do not want to go there with them.

I'll add some more later when I think of it. I have to go to work.

Marc-

[makiwaraman]

Gentlemen,

May I jump in.

I have been training in Shotokan for 6yrs now and have just joined up with an Okinawian Kenpo group. I believe I can give some firsthand info on this one as I am cross training.

In regards to Shotokan, it is not a weak style per say as it has very powerful striking techniques. It is however very linear in it's movements and in a restrictive way very platform dependent. I noticed these differences when I actually sparred with my new group. The rules were different the results were way different.

In Shotokan you can't attack to the lower limbs and groin and most sparring is controlled and rarely full contact ( I know we do hit each other but not this hard ).

Okinawian Kempo not only allows low kicks and grion strikes, it encourages them. They go all out full contact. They wear full armor ( face shield, chest protector, groin guard (make sure it's a good one!!!!),

hand and foot protectors. The sparring includes stand up fighting taken to the ground until finishing. Joint locks, choke outs, submissions.

OK also uses a more diverse arsenal of hand techniques for day one than you do in Shotokan as the more advanced hand techniques are not really used all that much. Shotokan= empty hand no weapons. OK= we like weapons and anything else to pummel you with.

The weakness in the OK system IMO is that they are not as strong in their stances and do not have the explosiveness of the Shotokan karateka. I seemed to have success when I drove in on my combos to get in to sweep where I was less likely to be swept due to my stronger stance.

But.... They are very good on the ground. Most Shotokan guys do not want to go there with them.

I'll add some more later when I think of it. I have to go to work.

Marc-

Not all shotokan clubs stick to those rules, we are allowed to do any karate technique during kumite and are positively encouraged to kick below the belt. It must be said that this is not at more than 50% power but the speeds and allowed power change at random and the higher grade sets the tempo/power.

regards maki

[SenseiMike]

Skeptic, i agree with this

"My observation of Shotokan is that it suffers from poor body mechanics. In an attempt to be powerful, the way I've seen Shotokan karateka move actually robs them of the very thing they seek. Their stances deadlock the transfer of weight and energy into what otherwise would be really strong techniques. It looks good, and I've seen Shotokan guys train HARD, but in the end they are their own worst enemies in terms of moving and execution, based purely on what I've seen."

but that's because they generally have poor training. I do the same stances that most shotokan schools do, but I do them while hitting the 'ol makiwara thus learning how to channel power through them. I also have a few friends a the local bjj club, they've never taken me down, because I spend so much time developing those stances.

[SenseiMike]

makiwara man -In regards to Shotokan, it is not a weak style per say as it has very powerful striking techniques. It is however very linear in it's movements and in a restrictive way very platform dependent. I noticed these differences when I actually sparred with my new group. The rules were different the results were way different.

 

In Shotokan you can't attack to the lower limbs and groin and most sparring is controlled and rarely full contact ( I know we do hit each other but not this hard ).

 

Okinawian Kempo not only allows low kicks and grion strikes, it encourages them. They go all out full contact. They wear full armor ( face shield, chest protector, groin guard (make sure it's a good one!!!!),

 

hand and foot protectors. The sparring includes stand up fighting taken to the ground until finishing. Joint locks, choke outs, submissions.

at my school, take downs, and leg hits are the norm. I teach them, I use them, I emphasize thm during sparring. If you're stance is good, you won't be taken down, so If my students constantly end up on the ground, then they need to work on their stance.

We spar semi-contact, but that's more for liablity isuses then anything else, I don't wanna get sued.

[makiwaraman]

makiwara man -In regards to Shotokan, it is not a weak style per say as it has very powerful striking techniques. It is however very linear in it's movements and in a restrictive way very platform dependent. I noticed these differences when I actually sparred with my new group. The rules were different the results were way different.

 

In Shotokan you can't attack to the lower limbs and groin and most sparring is controlled and rarely full contact ( I know we do hit each other but not this hard ).

 

Okinawian Kempo not only allows low kicks and grion strikes, it encourages them. They go all out full contact. They wear full armor ( face shield, chest protector, groin guard (make sure it's a good one!!!!),

 

hand and foot protectors. The sparring includes stand up fighting taken to the ground until finishing. Joint locks, choke outs, submissions.

at my school, take downs, and leg hits are the norm. I teach them, I use them, I emphasize thm during sparring. If you're stance is good, you won't be taken down, so If my students constantly end up on the ground, then they need to work on their stance.

We spar semi-contact, but that's more for liablity isuses then anything else, I don't wanna get sued.

SenseiMike I am trying to get your point, your styles list like mine say shotokan, I do shotokan, so in some shotokan clubs you can attack the lower limbs and groin, also we can sweep grab throw lock. as for it being linear my sensei is always saying get off the rails when we kumite, So my point is that not all shotokan clubs should be tared with the same brush,We also don full protective gear and go at full speed and power on occasion as I said before there is good shotokan and bad shotokan.

regards maki