Moore's Shou Shu

[classiccopy]

Does any one have any experience with Moore's Shou Shu schools. They have been around this area,central California, for quite some time. I tried them out years ago but didn't really like it. I am wondering if I should give them another try since I was young and it was a long time ago. I will admit I am a little turned off by the whole seven animal thing but I keep wondering if I am missing something because of the success that they have had and I need to find a new "home". One where I could stay for awhile and Moore's with 19 studios and great hours,12-10 M-F, sure would make it easy. Check them out if you want.

https://www.mooreschinesemartialarts.com

[y2_sub]

I didn't feel comfortable while exploring the website , i am not a big fan of "Animal styles" thing .

[Enviroman]

Instant red flags:

"There are 12 belt levels prior to obtaining the coveted black belt."

"The minimum level you should try to attain is the high Purple Belt. This is when the art starts to become a reaction. This takes approximately 8 months."

19 (!) different schools.

7 animal style (including Bear and something that looks like a weasel or an ermine or something). Normally, 5 animal kung fu works off of dragon, crane, snake, tiger, and leopard. This style has added a mantis (which is a totally different style), bear (of which I know nothing), and some other weasel-like animal (which *could* be a leopard but it sure doesn't look like one).

No mention of true lineage (other than other family members of the same name).

This is not to say that it's not a good school, but these are points of interest...

[fallen_milkman]

And since when do Chinese styles use "belts"? I though most of them used sashes, aside from Shaolin-Do?

[P.A.L]

first of all ,how could you call your Mandarian chinese martial art , KARATE???

i read the newspaper interview with him, i just got confused more than before, got his first degree black belt at 17.5 (i don't think that in 1943 there were belt system in kongfu), study in China for 2.5 years and become a master of 7 animals????

being a full time engineer for 10 years before atarting to teach, i don't know.

he is a good martial artist no doubt but for me the lineage and originality of the art is very important, may be it just me.

second time i met sensei Lindsey i asked him about the history of each katas he teaches, although a master like Lindsey who charge $30 per month is not comparable with a comercialized studio.

[Muaythaiboxer]

after looking threw the website i came to the conclusion that the schools are a joke 8 mounths to make the moves a reaction shure... 1 1/2 years to get a BB... will make it so you can fight 3 people at once... this schools sounds like a mcdojo to me i would stear clear of it.

[elbows_and_knees]

I've seen discussion of it on other forums - the general consensus is that they are frauds.

[scottnshelly]

Without ever being to this class, meeting the Instructor or browsing their website; it’d say that you could certainly learn something from there. Maybe all you’d learn is not to sign a year-long contract, but you’d learn something. The fact that he has 19 schools makes me ponder. The problem is, when you start one school you have a certain goal in mind for that school. You come up with a syllabus and you do everything you can to follow it. Then when you open the second school, you trust someone else to follow the curriculum. Then they open a third school and they trust a third person to follow the plan. By the time you get to 19 schools, they’ve got to all differ so much. How can one man run 19 schools efficiently and correspondingly? If I were in the area, I’d at least attend and speak with the Instructors to see if it was worth my time and money.

How much does he charge anyway?

In summary, don’t write this school off based solely on the website and some people’s opinions. Make your own educated opinion.

[tkdBill]

scottnshelly, you are so right. When looking at MA schools, you can almost never judge the school by the website. Talk to the instructor, try a few classes, talk to a few students, and then decide.

--

[White Warlock]

I'll toss my opinion, based on direct observation and also on previous research (and do note, i do research).

The founder, Al Moore Sr, is deceased. A great man for achieving as much as he did in his life. I generally hold to a policy of not talking ill of the dead. I will speak of what he has stated and of the information i have been able to obtain.

He and his son studied Ed Parker's kenpo w/Bob Blackmore in the late sixties. By all counts he was a beginner when he walked in the door, which brings contradiction to the claims he studied in China shortly after WWII. He was also noted as an average student and studied for only a few years before he either bought out the school in Walnut Creek or created his own. He later presented the system called shou shu, which looks remarkably like Ed Parker's kenpo, including the forms. Basically, it is argued that shou shu is an 'adulterated' offshoot of kenpo.

It is rumored he studied at the Arthur Murray dance studio (not for dance) with Dacascos and a few others, but this rumor was not substantiated. I.e., Dacascos and others of the time did not substantiate the claim. This is likely either because they didn't want to get involved with the witchhunt, or they simply did not remember him... which says volumes in and of itself. But, then again, that's what rumors do, right?

Continuing...

The interview listed here http://www.mooreschinesemartialarts.com/about/new_articles.htm present a gross ignorance of China (which he claims to have studied at), the martial arts of China in general, and many other aspects. For a 'master' to state such things is, at the very least, disturbing. At the most likely, revealing.

He states such things as kung fu being Cantonese and shou shu being Mandarin. that they are sister arts and the mother of all other systems. Hello...

Note that in his article (page 4) he stated he never studied any other karate. Kenpo, at the time... was called kenpo karate. Sort of what they call it now, eh? Entertaining too, because on page 3 he said he had a black belt in kempo (i assume the same), as well as a black belt in judo and ju jutsu.

Which brings me to quote a particular paragraph from that article:

HN: Do you hold any black belts in any other types of martial arts?

Da Shifu (Al Moore): Yes, i have them in Kempo, Ju Jit Su, and Judo. I also have honorary belts that i have been awarded in other systems. Taking the test would have been easy. They wanted to be able to say that i had a rank in their system, so they wanted me to have it.

*bling* *bling* *bling*

Moving on...

Now here's the interesting part. In a matter of 8 years or so, he had over 30 instructors... and i think 12 schools (memory is sketchy on that part). A good businessman, to say the least.

I have read that they claim their system is a 'core' system and that its origins reach as far back as Egyptian times. They state that a forefather system is kalaripayit. However, kalaripayit's applications and approaches are 'nothing' like any of shou shu's animals.

Indeed, if i may be so bold, the animals in shou shu do not approach, or even appropriately emulate, 'any' Chinese system's animals. You would think there would be 'some' similarities, eh? After all, did they not all originate from India (kalaripayit)? Or, even if they did and the animal concepts were not created in India, but later in China, would they not be similar to the animal styles in China?

Btw, just to toss out a point of contention to the claims of shou shu coming from China, but having been a 'secret' system (the long-stated argument as to why there is no indication of lineage or any information 'anywhere' in China regarding this particular art), does not hold well with my knowledge of China's history (as it pertains to the martial arts) and the way in which such things as 'animal styles' and other 'flowery' concepts came to being. I.e., they were primarily birthed due to marketing purposes, by masters to gain attention of nobles and wealthy merchants. For to be retained by one of wealthy, meant to be retained for life (in most cases). Therefore, to compete for employment (essentially), they presented 'interesting' and 'flowery' factors into their systems.

Interesting how marketing then is still marketing now, except now it's on the big screen.

Some of the things that bothered me are that many of the students, in discussions and in person, have displayed a 'bar room brawler' mentality, which falls into the 'opportunist' picture and conflicts heavily with my belief in how the arts are to be studied. I.e., not as a means to take advantage of drunk people, but as a means to develop oneself, whilst along the way gaining the ability to save yourself, or another, from serious harm if need arises. So, basically, it seems with all the elements of animals... they are missing an element of 'spirit.'

There's more on Moore's system, but i would have to redo my research to get grittier details, as most of this i pulled out of my memory. Hope what i provided has helped.