Hwarangdo for self-defense?

[Anbu Alex]

Yes, I was surprised to see how knowledgeable the Koreans were regarding fighting versus martial art (with the exception of the women, of course). TKD and Hwa Rang Do was definitely viewed in the same line as we see Judo or wrestling. Elements were combative, but they were not fighting arts. And none of the Korean TKD black belts or Hwa Rang Do black belts that I met would use these techniques (most of them, anyway) in actual fights. They had a total different thought process and group of techniques when it came to the down and dirty world of street fighting.

Well my sensei and the soke in our art says there are two braches in Martial Arts Sport and Budo (combat) i honestly think you can even use sport martial arts in a fight ive seen many tkd ppl win street fights

[Hansen]

There are two different posts here that I will address, since they are in response to one of my prior posts.

First, I do not disagree that there are some women who are knowledgeable about fighting and are quite skilled. Erin Toughill is one example. And there are others, but they are exceptions. The reality is, the overwhelming majority are not as knowledgeable or have the level of actual empty hand combat experience that men do. Most could not tell you the difference between TKD and JKD and consider a "black belt" in Tae Bo as meaningful as a King of the Cage title. How many women even know what King of the Cage is (unless a boyfriend is into it)? To illustrate my point further, when was the last time you saw a woman with cauliflower ears? Or with a permanently disfigured nose from fighting? How many fights have you witnessed even on a school playground involving girls, compared to the number of fights you've seen between boys? While there may be women who are as knowledgeable about fighting or more so than men, they are the exception and a very rare breed.

To Anbu Alex, your sensei is correct that there are different outlets in terms of marital art. Sport and budo (or combat) are merely two examples of such outlets. But if the TKD techniques (not strategies) used for combat do not differ much from the TKD techniques applied in sport competition then there are obvious limitations with the art. For combat is not the same as sport fighting. Example, high kicks are great in sport TKD, but on the street its usefulness is more limited. I agree that sport fighting is still useful for training in actual fighting, but only as long as the practitioners are training against a live, resisting opponent who are attacking and defending in the manner they would during an actual encounter. Most traditional martial art schools do not practice in this way or only do so in a limited manner. Example, two sport TKD fighters will spar by exchanging (high) kicks, but I've rarely seen even an attempted high kick in a real encounter. In contrast, I have seen sport BJJ practitioners beat an opponent on the streets with a shoulder lock and another by a choke. I've also seen a Judo practitioner execute a hip toss and severely injure his opponent once the guy landed on the asphalt. But I wouldn't generalize by stating that all sport fighting arts automatically translate into a useful combative art.

I've also known TKD practitioners win street fights, but I only know of one person who actually used a TKD technique to beat his adversary. It was a Korean dude who delivered a classic roundhouse kick to his opponent's temple while he was still mouthing off at him. The guy dropped instantly and the fight was over. But this guy was very very flexible, could use his feet as fast and nimbly as we use our hands. He was an exception by far, and I wouldn't say that most TKD practitioners would've been able to pull that off. I know I couldn't.

[Goju_boi]

well I wouldn't go as far to say that girls with knowledge of fighting or martial arts is rare,but enough of that topic.

Well when I was in high school I saw a street fight between two guys one was a untrained street fighter that was just full of anger and rage, the other guy was a calm muscular guy that really didn't want to fight him.Well the street fighter kept insulting him calling him african and what not , so they got into it.The street fighter was just wildly swinging at him the other guy just kept doing nothing but midlevel round kicks.I'm just guessing he did tkd being that he only kicked.After a while the streetfighter became frustrated and realized he was going to lose and just left.

[McBeth]

There are a lot of kicking styles out there other than just tae kwon do. Nowadays muay Thai has become quite popular and more people are learning this style over more traditional arts like tae kwon do. So it is quite possible the person you saw was trained in muay Thai. The difference is in the way the kick is expressed. A traditional karate, tae kwon do, or hwa rang do kick is delivered by bringing the leg up to the side and then swinging it out at the opponent in a horizontal fashion. That is the classic roundhouse kick. Of course, the expression changes when you are kicking to the head or ribs but that is how it is taught. A muay Thai round kick is executed directly from where the rear foot is placed. There is no cocking of the leg prior to delivery. It is more efficient and more powerful, in my opinion. And in general, muay Thai fighters tend to deliver lower kicks, such as to the thigh, calf, or rib cage. Rarely do they ascend above that, though it does happen in competition.

I don't think hansen was implying that kicking was useless, only that tae kwon do is not a strategically complete art. It emphasizes kicks too much. At least I think that's what he was getting it. More fights are won with the hands than with the feet. And if it goes to the ground then it is even more likely to be won with the hands.

[Goju_boi]

I don't think tkd is useless either but as u said it's really lacking in some areas. As for the way the round kick was done,I really can't recall.Because Back then I was into cars ,and didn't get into martial arts untill my junior year of high school.But I would like to see a clip of the thai round kick to see the difference.

[battousai16]

none? really? huh... well alright. my beefs with hansen's statements are, well, as far as i know, there isn't actually a hwa rang do school in korea... our headquarters is in LA. Be it their creation or not, it was their creation 2000 years ago, and i wouldn't take your encounters in korea as the ultimate authorities on the style.

you also seem to be insinuating that the hwa rang do arsenal consists of jump kicks and the like, of which it does not. well, that's not true. they're there, but of everything we train, they come up the least. joint manipulation is actually what i see the most of. still, 4,000 techniques and not a single one applicable to live fighting? i don't buy it, i think we've quite a few. and for the record, you listed our roundhouse closer to the technique of a TKD one, where as in reality it's much closer to that of muay thai.

we may have a sketchy history and lousy politics, but i think we're pretty combat effective.

[Hansen]

As far as i know, there isn't actually a hwa rang do school in korea...

You are incorrect. The first Hwa Rang Do school started in Seoul, Korea. And there are still recognized instructors of this art form in Korea. Here is a link to some Hwa Rang Do academies throughout the world, including Korea: http://www.hwarangdo.com/Academy.htm

Be it their creation or not, it was their creation 2000 years ago, and i wouldn't take your encounters in korea as the ultimate authorities on the style.

That's funny. So I shouldn't take the words of the very people and culture from which Hwa Rang Do came from (including ranked members in the art) as meaning much? Then who's word should I take? Should I take the authorities to be a bunch of white dudes who wear pjs a few times per week, and were born into a completely different culture, to mean more? I think it's reasonable to assume that the Koreans would know more about their own history, culture, and art, especially if they are practitioners.

you also seem to be insinuating that the hwa rang do arsenal consists of jump kicks and the like, of which it does not. well, that's not true. they're there, but of everything we train, they come up the least. joint manipulation is actually what i see the most of.

I do not recall mentioning jumping kicks specifically, but I did reference high kicks. But since you mentioned jumping kicks, here is a link with a picture of your founder performing a jumping kick on the cover of volume 2: The Ancient Martial Art of Hwarang Do. You can check it out here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1884577016/qid=1122876624/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-3493194-9120005?v=glance&s=books

Also, I never stated or meant to imply that Hwa Rang Do only consisted of kicks. But kicking (and high kicking) is a big part of its striking techniques. If you disagree with me, then you may wish to browse through volume 1 of Joo Bang Lee's book. Much of that volume is devoted to kicking and they look very much like TKD style kicks.

I think the reason your school emphasizes grappling so much and downplays the kicks now is because of the popularity of MMA, which has shown that strikers have been neglecting an important range of combat in their training. A lot of traditional striking schools have begun doing the same. But from what I saw of the art during the 80s, while Hwa Rang Do did teach grappling, it was far from being a grappling style and no where near as sophisticated as today's grappling systems. Even modern TKD teaches grappling but I wouldn't call it a grappling oriented system.

Besides, the ancient Hwa Rang warriors were soldiers. They supposedly used this stuff on the battlefield. So like any battlefield art the emphasis would've been on weapons (and rightfully so), not empty hands or grappling. The Romans also knew how to strike and grapple (think about the gladiators) but their military emphasized the gladius and the scutum because that was what was going to save them in battle, not punching, kicking, a double leg takedown, or an ankle lock.

I think you're confusing modern Hwa Rang Do, as it has been reconstructed by Joo Bang Lee and subsequent instructors, to what the ancient Hwa Rang warriors used during the reign of Silla. Even ancient jujitsu is not the same as modern jujitsu or its sport counterpart, judo. Heck, judo has even changed dramatically since post WWII. It's a completely different art. If you want to know what pre-WWII judo was like, take Brazilian jiujitsu. That's about as close as you'll get nowadays.

...and for the record, you listed our roundhouse closer to the technique of a TKD one, where as in reality it's much closer to that of muay thai.

we may have a sketchy history and lousy politics, but i think we're pretty combat effective.

As for the expression of the roundhouse kick, I think a quick thumb through Joo Bang Lee's books will end this discussion. It is definitely a TKD-style kick and looks nothing like a properly executed muay Thai round kick. If your school teaches muay Thai kicks, that's great. But it's not the Hwa Rang Do that Joo Bang Lee promoted during the 80s.

While I cannot say what it is you are learning at your specific school, I can tell you that since the birth of the UFC and Pride tournaments, many schools have integrated various styles into their curriculum without changing the name of the system. For example, I've gone into karate schools where a punching bag is hanging, the stylists train with focus gloves, and use Thai pads to practice their kicks. These are western boxing and muay Thai equipment. I've also entered wing chun academies in my area where they teach ground grappling. But the school still maintains the name, Wing Chun, and the instructor there states that original wing chun had ground elements to their game. But interestingly, none of the powerhouse instructors would've agreed to that statement, including Wong Shun Leung, Bruce Lee, or William Cheung. And the ground grappling looks strangely familiar to BJJ. Go figure.

All I can say is that whatever you're learning, as long as it's effective, then great. But you shouldn't mistake the art, its history, or its culture for ancient Hwa Rang Do. Glean through some old martial arts books, magazines, and videos from back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s and compare them to the way the arts are presented today. You may find that many things have changed, and that a large percentage of schools in the States do not adhere to the original founders' of their systems teachings, though they may claim to do so. I'm not saying its wrong, I'm just stating its different from how the original founders expressed the techniques or taught their curriculums.

Finally, I did not state that Hwa Rang Do or TKD lacked any combat effective elements. A good practitioner with some real combat experience could be quite effective in a fight. I just feel there are better arts to learn and better arts that can teach a person to fight much more quickly.

Edited August 5, 2005 by Hansen

[Goju_boi]

very good post hansen!

[battousai16]

"You are incorrect. The first Hwa Rang Do school started in Seoul, Korea. And there are still recognized instructors of this art form in Korea. Here is a link to some Hwa Rang Do academies throughout the world, including Korea: http://www.hwarangdo.com/Academy.htm "

Indeed, I stand corrected. I was told otherwise, that'll teach me to leave facts unchecked.

"That's funny. So I shouldn't take the words of the very people and culture from which Hwa Rang Do came from (including ranked members in the art) as meaning much? Then who's word should I take? Should I take the authorities to be a bunch of white dudes who wear pjs a few times per week, and were born into a completely different culture, to mean more? I think it's reasonable to assume that the Koreans would know more about their own history, culture, and art, especially if they are practitioners."

To this, I'll respond with your quote here:

"I think you're confusing modern Hwa Rang Do, as it has been reconstructed by Joo Bang Lee and subsequent instructors, to what the ancient Hwa Rang warriors used during the reign of Silla."

I think you're confusing Hwa Rang Do with Um Yang Kwan, the style used by the Hwarang that Hwa Rang Do is based off of. Hwa Rang Do was developed by Dr. Joo Bang Lee and... a white dude who wore pjs a few times per week, and was born into a completely different culture. Go Figure. Besides, if I want good pizza, I'll go to the guy with the better pizza, not necissarily the guy who's Italian.

"But since you mentioned jumping kicks, here is a link with a picture of your founder performing a jumping kick on the cover of volume 2: The Ancient Martial Art of Hwarang Do. You can check it out here:"

First of all, I'm sorry, I forget I'd addressed your post specifically, and started addressing the whole thread. At any rate, I didn't say we don't have jump kicks, in fact, I said we do. But out of the 4,000 techniques in out system, only 365 of them are kicks. I was never very good at math, but those proportions don't seem right for kicks to be that major a focus. I think he put that ridiculously showy picture on the cover because it entices more people to buy.

"Also, I never stated or meant to imply that Hwa Rang Do only consisted of kicks. But kicking (and high kicking) is a big part of its striking techniques. If you disagree with me, then you may wish to browse through volume 1 of Joo Bang Lee's book. Much of that volume is devoted to kicking and they look very much like TKD style kicks. "

Again, I didn't say they weren't there. In fact, I said they were. I said they weren't as big as y'all were making them out to be. As it turns out, I've read the book quite recently, as the history and philosophy section is great review for the written exams we take during our tests. That section takes up quite a bit, as I recall. I also seem to recall a large portion being devoted to falling techniques, for when we get thrown or swept... not to mention a flip fall and a back flip. Their purpose, as explained in the book, is to escape from joint locks. Joint locks aren't in the book because the book is recomended for beginners for home review. The chambers are emphasised because, again, it's for beginners, and indeed, the kicks, particularly the front and the chop, are in a TKD style at the novice level (white through yellow). Buy the time you advance to green however, that's expected to evolve into something more power oriented, ala muay thai. That may very well be a midwest thing, but we all do it. That said, I do admit that we keep a lot of them in our forms, as they look prettier. Not to say that the power kicks aren't in them, but a standing kick will generally have emphasized chambers.

"I think the reason your school emphasizes grappling so much and downplays the kicks now is because of the popularity of MMA, which has shown that strikers have been neglecting an important range of combat in their training. A lot of traditional striking schools have begun doing the same. But from what I saw of the art during the 80s, while Hwa Rang Do did teach grappling, it was far from being a grappling style and no where near as sophisticated as today's grappling systems. Even modern TKD teaches grappling but I wouldn't call it a grappling oriented system."

I was born in 1986, so I don't know what they were selling then. But I can assure you that joint manipulation has been a large part of the system for the last 25 years at least. And as long as you're throwing the books into play, perhaps you should take a gander at volume 3, the black book, or put a reserve on Master Lee's upcoming book "silver bullets", which all deal more with grappling. I'll admit I never read volume 2, I don't know what that deals with.

"Besides, the ancient Hwa Rang warriors were soldiers. They supposedly used this stuff on the battlefield. So like any battlefield art the emphasis would've been on weapons (and rightfully so), not empty hands or grappling. The Romans also knew how to strike and grapple (think about the gladiators) but their military emphasized the gladius and the scutum because that was what was going to save them in battle, not punching, kicking, a double leg takedown, or an ankle lock. "

Indeed, hence our 108 weapons which, by the way, have a greater emphasis than jump kicks.

"As for the expression of the roundhouse kick, I think a quick thumb through Joo Bang Lee's books will end this discussion. It is definitely a TKD-style kick and looks nothing like a properly executed muay Thai round kick. If your school teaches muay Thai kicks, that's great. But it's not the Hwa Rang Do that Joo Bang Lee promoted during the 80s. "

Just the blue book, I think. I'm pretty sure it transitions by volume 3, as I'm fairly certain it does by the panther series videos.

"While I cannot say what it is you are learning at your specific school, I can tell you that since the birth of the UFC and Pride tournaments, many schools have integrated various styles into their curriculum without changing the name of the system. "

That may be, but I don't see how it applies. First of all, of all the MMA matches I've seen, none have ended in the small joint manipulation I was reffering to. Ground fighting dosen't actually have that large an emphasis in our school, although I think they do it more in California. That said, I think ours is a bit wussier than BJJ. My humble opinion.

"All I can say is that whatever you're learning, as long as it's effective, then great."

Agreed. Y'know, if that's what you're going for.

"But you shouldn't mistake the art, its history, or its culture for ancient Hwa Rang Do."

I'm not. That's Um Yang Kwan. That's in the blue book you made reference too.

"Glean through some old martial arts books, magazines, and videos from back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s and compare them to the way the arts are presented today. You may find that many things have changed, and that a large percentage of schools in the States do not adhere to the original founders' of their systems teachings, though they may claim to do so. I'm not saying its wrong, I'm just stating its different from how the original founders expressed the techniques or taught their curriculums."

I have. I'd quote them, but I'm in the middle of a move and they're all packed away. However, their main points are that it's an effective well rounded system based on the style the Hwarang studied, not that it had a lot of high flying kicks. Those are just the photo ops. An old issue of Black Belt Magazine, the want ads of MA literature, says it's great because it has everything from grappling to weapons. Some adjustments have indeed been made, but in things like the sequence of forms and the like. Or a technique would be taken out of one form and into another. And, for the record, the founder is alive and well, and still practicing, and is the head of the Academy. Even if it had changed, and nothing as large as the inclusion as joint manipulation has in the last 25 years, it would still be his teachings. And again, his school is in the United States. He actually went back to Korea for the first time since he left in the 70's last year.

"Finally, I did not state that Hwa Rang Do or TKD lacked any combat effective elements."

Again, I'm sorry, I meant to direct that at the thread, not you specifically.

"I just feel there are better arts to learn"

Of course, but that depends entirely on what the person wants out of his/her training.

"can teach a person to fight much more quickly."

Quicker does not equal more effective.

[Hansen]

"I think you're confusing Hwa Rang Do with Um Yang Kwan, the style used by the Hwarang that Hwa Rang Do is based off of.”

Don't know what you are exactly stating here. Are you implying that modern Hwa Rang Do is not the same as what the ancient Hwa Rang warriors practiced (Um Yang Kwan, as you mention)? If so, then I would agree; however, that is not what Hwa Rang Do practitioners claim. According to practitioners of Hwa Rang Do, Joo Bang Lee learned his art from a Buddhist monk who is able to trace his marital heritage directly to the teachings of the ancient Hwa Rang warriors. In fact, in Lee’s book, The Ancient Martial Art of Hwa Rang Do: Volume 1, he even says that the art of Hwa Rang Do went into seclusion during the Yi Dynasty (1392 – 1910) and has been preserved in the Buddhist temples of Korea until the art re-emerged again during the 1940s. It was at this time that Lee began his training in the art at the Yang Mi Ahm temple. This info is all in Lee’s book. You can reference the section entitled, “Hwa Rang Do O Kae,” in the introduction for more details. In any case, if you read his book, it’s quite clear that Lee is promoting his Hwa Rang Do as being the same art practiced by the ancient warriors of Silla. He never states or implies that what he is teaching is merely “based off” of what these ancient warriors did, although it is logical to presume that an art’s expression will evolve over time.

In addition, in all my readings on Korean history, including from Korean history textbooks, I’ve never heard of Um Yang Kwan being a martial art or style. However, I have encountered such a term in reference to techniques (i.e. Um and Yang techniques or skills), and it’s never been used exclusively to reference Hwa Rang Do techniques. Um and Yang are the Korean equivalent of the Chinese terms, Yin and Yang. In fact, Um and Yang are embodied as the red and blue circular symbol seen on the South Korean flag. And Um Yang Kwan is roughly translated as Soft and Hard Skills, a rather generic expression. It’s also interesting to note that Joo Bang Lee does not use the term Um Yang Kwan in his book (at least not in volume 1 where he covers the history of Hwa Rang Do) when discussing the art of the Hwa Rang warriors. However, he does use the expression, “The traditional martial arts of Hwa Rang Do” and does make reference to Um and Yang frequently in the beginning sections.

From this, I would venture to guess that the exclusivity of Um Yang Kwan is a 20th century invention. That is, the ancient Hwa Rang warriors did not call what they practiced or trained in, Um Yang Kwan. It is a modern term that perhaps has become associated with Hwa Rang Do. I do realize that many Hwa Rang Do practitioners state that their art is based on the principles of the Um and Yang. But then again, so are many gung fu styles, jujitsu styles, and even the Jun Fan Martial Arts. My main point here is that the founder of Hwa Rang Do claims his art is ancient Hwa Rang Do. He even titled his book, The Ancient Martial Art of Hwa Rang Do, not The Modern Art of Hwa Rang Do Based Off of an Ancient Martial Art. So in the eyes of Joo Bang Lee, his art is more than just “based off” of the ancient Hwa Rang warriors. To him, it is in fact the same as what they practiced and trained in. So Um Yang Kwan (as you call it) is the same as modern Hwa Rang Do, according to Lee.

"Hwa Rang Do was developed by Dr. Joo Bang Lee and... a white dude who wore pjs a few times per week, and was born into a completely different culture. Go Figure. Besides, if I want good pizza, I'll go to the guy with the better pizza, not necissarily the guy who's Italian.

I’ve never heard about a “white dude” being involved in the development or creation of Hwa Rang Do. Are you sure he wasn’t just Lee’s P.R. man or helped with marketing? According to all the major websites on Hwa Rang Do and Joo Bang Lee’s own book, the art was passed down directly from the Buddhist monk, Suahm Dosa, to Joo Bang Lee and his brother (who was not a white dude, by the way). But if a white dude was involved in the creation of the art, as you state, then it would seem to me that the whole art is a fraud. After all, it is promoted as "The Ancient art of Hwa Rang Do". And I am not aware of any "white dudes" in ancient Silla or even knowing about Hwa Rang Do until well after Lee made the art public. If you are serious about a “white dude” being involved in the creation of the art, then please provide us all with the name of the individual and the source where you are getting your information. I’m sure many of us on this forum would be interested in learning more about this.

"I didn't say we don't have jump kicks, in fact, I said we do. But out of the 4,000 techniques in out system, only 365 of them are kicks. I was never very good at math, but those proportions don't seem right for kicks to be that major a focus. I think he put that ridiculously showy picture on the cover because it entices more people to buy.”

I don’t think I stated that kicks were a major focus of the art. I merely stated that among its striking techniques kicks played a large role, many of which are high kicks. And it was the latter aspect that I had some misgivings about. For example, in Volume 1 of Lee’s book, when he actually gets down to teaching his striking techniques (which begins in Chapter 4), he demonstrates 26 hand techniques (not including the variations) versus 22 kicking techniques. In other words, nearly 50% of the striking techniques shown in his book are kicks. And two of the hand strikes I would consider pretty lousy, such as the Three Stooges finger poke to the eye on page 89. I was surprised to not see the Three Stooges counter to the attack – the vertical placement of the hand against the bridge of the nose. But more importantly, of the 22 kicking techniques that he presents, 14 are demonstrated as high kicks and 4 are (literally) jumping kicks. That means 18 out of 22 or 82% of the kicks he shows are high kicks of some sort.

As for the 4000 techniques in Hwa Rang Do, I have no comment. I am not a practitioner of Hwa Rang Do. But from my experience, when someone says there are X number of techniques in an art, they are often counting every variation of a single concept as a distinct technique. For example, a roundhouse kick to the head, ribs, or thigh are presented as three separate techniques. To me, that’s all one technique because it’s the same concept expressed against three different targets. Or a hand strike using the outer edge of the hand is one technique and a hand strike using the inner edge is a separate technique. Then add all the targets you can attack using those strikes and suddenly you have hundreds of techniques. But to me, that’s still all one technique because it is based off of one concept – edge striking. But if Hwa Rang Do truly has 4000 distinct empty hand techniques and all of them are useful for modern day combat, that’s great! More power to you! But it seems quite difficult and time consuming to become proficient in an art with 4000 truly distinct techniques that its practitioner is supposed to master.

While I also agree that Lee probably displays the jumping kick (on the cover of Volume 2) merely for promotion of his book, he does seem to view jumping kicks as worthwhile techniques to learn for modern day combat. As stated above, he includes 4 jumping kicks in volume 1 of his book as viable modern day techniques of combat, and that makes me feel a bit suspect of the usefulness of the art compared to other fighting systems. It isn’t that it can never ever work, but such techniques have a low percentage success rate, so in my opinion, it is best not to include them (except arguably at the black belt level). But that’s just my opinion.

"As it turns out, I've read the book quite recently, as the history and philosophy section is great review for the written exams we take during our tests. That section takes up quite a bit, as I recall. I also seem to recall a large portion being devoted to falling techniques, for when we get thrown or swept... not to mention a flip fall and a back flip. Their purpose, as explained in the book, is to escape from joint locks. Joint locks aren't in the book because the book is recomended for beginners for home review. The chambers are emphasised because, again, it's for beginners, and indeed, the kicks, particularly the front and the chop, are in a TKD style at the novice level (white through yellow). Buy the time you advance to green however, that's expected to evolve into something more power oriented, ala muay thai. That may very well be a midwest thing, but we all do it. That said, I do admit that we keep a lot of them in our forms, as they look prettier. Not to say that the power kicks aren't in them, but a standing kick will generally have emphasized chambers."

Our conversation has pivoted on the striking techniques, and Lee has a book devoted to the joint manipulations, so I have nothing further to say at this point in time regarding joint locks. However, if Volume 1 is only a beginner’s book (i.e. without any advanced techniques presented) then I find it odd to include very flashy, high kicks. Most novices in the art aren’t even flexible enough to pull off many of the kicks in volume 1 (82% of which are high kicks of some sort). But I guess back then, you needed those flashy kicks to sell a martial arts book. As for the TKD style kicks only being taught that way at the white and yellow belt level, that makes no sense. Why would someone do such a thing? It only delays the development of proper body mechanics and may ingrain bad habits into its practitioners. If what you are saying is true, then I definitely would not recommend taking Hwa Rang Do. It’s a waste of time and there’s no point in teaching someone to kick one way and then stating later that was only how beginners are taught to kick; now here’s the real way. That’s a ridiculous way to teach an art, especially if you’re looking for something functional right away. I can teach someone how to execute a proper muay Thai round kick in one lesson, and it’s much more powerful. Why wait until the advanced levels?

"I was born in 1986, so I don't know what they were selling then. But I can assure you that joint manipulation has been a large part of the system for the last 25 years at least. And as long as you're throwing the books into play, perhaps you should take a gander at volume 3, the black book, or put a reserve on Master Lee's upcoming book "silver bullets", which all deal more with grappling. I'll admit I never read volume 2, I don't know what that deals with."

Don’t know anything about Silver Bullets, but I did browse through volume 3 years ago. But overall, from what I’ve seen of the system during my research in the 80s, I think the grappling oriented arts like BJJ, Judo, and even wrestling are more functional and far more sophisticated for handling a modern day encounter. It doesn’t mean that Hwa Rang Do has nothing to offer, so don’t misinterpret me. But other arts have the same grappling techniques that Hwa Rang Do has, and in Judo or BJJ, at the end of each class the students get to actually practice the techniques and see for themselves what does and does not work. As far as I know, Hwa Rang Do schools don’t do much of that, and I think that’s perhaps the most important aspect of training regardless of the martial art.

"Indeed, hence our 108 weapons which, by the way, have a greater emphasis than jump kicks.”

But still, the ancient warriors would’ve trained almost exclusively in weaponry, at least if they expected to live. Certainly, small joint manipulations would’ve been rather low on the list. And I doubt a single Hwa Rang warrior was required to practice or learn all 108 weapons. For sake of developing experts on the battlefield, most military tend to force groups of men to master specific weapons, and perhaps learn a back up weapon as well. Spending time on too many skills or tasks merely divides one’s attention and focus and is less conducive to the development of a functional, strong military.

"Just the blue book, I think. I'm pretty sure it transitions by volume 3, as I'm fairly certain it does by the panther series videos.”

Again, if what you are stating is true, then I think this is the result of greater knowledge and evolution resulting from the NHB style tournaments. The art, as founded by Joo Bang Lee, had no muay Thai expressed kicks in it as you suggested in an earlier post. And besides, why would a properly executed Hwa Rang Do roundhouse kick be expressed like a TKD style kick only in the blue book (volume 1) but resemble a muay Thai kick in later books? There’s no logic to your argument. Either the mechanics of the kicks shown in volume 1 are correct in that style or they are not.

"That may be, but I don't see how it applies. First of all, of all the MMA matches I've seen, none have ended in the small joint manipulation I was reffering to. Ground fighting dosen't actually have that large an emphasis in our school, although I think they do it more in California. That said, I think ours is a bit wussier than BJJ. My humble opinion."

Let me clarify. What I was stating was that merely because you see an emphasis on joint manipulations in your school, does not mean that the original art was primarily a joint manipulation art form or even heavily emphasized such techniques. Merely because you see a roundhouse kick being delivered like a muay Thai round kick, doesn’t mean that was how the original art taught its students how a properly executed Hwa Rang Do roundhouse kick is delivered. Many schools nowadays have incorporated other styles and techniques into their curriculum but fail to give credit to where they are acquiring this information and knowledge from. And based on your statements, that is what I suspect is going on at your school.

As for why none of the NHB fights have ended in small joint manipulations, small joint manipulations are illegal. They’re not spectator friendly techniques, and many small joint manipulations would be difficult to catch on camera. You’d more likely see the after effects. But the primary reason why such techniques are illegal is simply because they can shorten a fighter’s career. Despite the “brutality” of MMA, the promoters still have a desire to preserve the fighters sufficiently so they can fight again and again.

"I have. I'd quote them, but I'm in the middle of a move and they're all packed away. However, their main points are that it's an effective well rounded system based on the style the Hwarang studied, not that it had a lot of high flying kicks. Those are just the photo ops. An old issue of Black Belt Magazine, the want ads of MA literature, says it's great because it has everything from grappling to weapons. Some adjustments have indeed been made, but in things like the sequence of forms and the like. Or a technique would be taken out of one form and into another. And, for the record, the founder is alive and well, and still practicing, and is the head of the Academy. Even if it had changed, and nothing as large as the inclusion as joint manipulation has in the last 25 years, it would still be his teachings. And again, his school is in the United States. He actually went back to Korea for the first time since he left in the 70's last year.”

Again, I never stated that Hwa Rang Do or TKD were useless arts. All I stated was that, in my opinion, there are better arts to learn for modern day encounters. I am merely stating my opinion.

And I don't know what Lee's travel agenda or the fact that his school is in the U.S. (if indeed it is) has to do with Hwa Rang Do or our discussion.

But when you get a chance to unpack all your stuff, I'd be interested in some references to the Hwa Rang Do roundhouse kick being the same as a muay Thai round kick from some old magazine articles from the 70s or early 80s. I have quite a few articles on Hwa Rang Do from back then and the demonstrators are showing TKD-style kicks and very little of the joint manipulations. Though they do show some, depending on the article.

"Quicker does not equal more effective."

True. But my statement was that there were arts that could teach a person to FIGHT more quickly. If it is not teaching one to fight, then it is not an effective art. So my point was not the speed at which someone could to learn an art or style, but the fact that there are arts out there can and will teach a person to fight but do so in a much quicker time frame than Hwa Rang Do.

Personally, I think most people can become competent fighters after only a year of boxing, BJJ, or muay Thai. If you add small joint manipulations, it will only make such a fighter that much more nasty to contend with. But the traditional arts usually take much longer for someone to become good at or become functional fighters, from what I’ve seen.