Bunkai head count

[Armbar]

Hi everyone:

The thread about kata application got me thinking. On average, how many bunkai are taught with each kata? Do you Goju guys have more bunkai, as you have only twelve kata?

Thanks in advance for responses.

[Shorin Ryuu]

First, there isn't a set number of bunkai taught per kata. Second, I think the question is rather irrelevant (no offense) anyway (and it's going to vary from dojo to dojo). You can't even determine it based on the number of kata in a system because kata are of varying lengths. You can't even determine it based on the number of movements in the kata because you may have many different bunkai for the same movement or series of movements. Or, you may string together different movements in your bunkai depending upon your timing.

It's simply how many your instructor chooses to teach you AND how many you can figure out for yourself. Learning, as opposed to simply training, demands you put forth the mental exertion to think on your own rather than simply have an instructor tell you all the bunkai. It certainly behooves you to see bunkai from various different people to take advantage of differing experience levels and perspectives, but at some point or another you're going to have to get the grey matter going.

At any rate, getting attached to a number for bunkai or specific bunkai runs the risk of promoting an unhealthy attachment to specific technique rather than concept.

[Armbar]

I agree that one should examine their kata on their own in order to better understand its concepts. A person should be encouraged to use their own mind and apply the principals they've learned in class in order to produce working, realistic bunkai based on what they see in the kata. This is what separates the 'I do it this way because my Sensei did' people, and the 'I do it this way because I find it works better' people.

However, my post was not in reference to personal training. I'd like to know the average number of bunkai taught as your schools 'official' interpretation of the kata. I am aware that, in the majority of schools, there is never a set number of taught bunkai to be found in each kata ( i.e. One may have 10, while another has 7.)

On a side note, I assume Goju teaches a higher number of bunkai per a kata based on a smaller pool of kata to focus on.

Thank you for your reply

[Sauzin]

Funny how Shorin-ryuu brought relevency to what he is calling an irrelevent question. He brings up a good point that you don't want to get stuck on a certain number of bunkai per movment. Official bunkai are great when you are first learning the movement but if that's all you focused on in your kata then you would be severely limiting it's use. In my school there is one official bunkai per move. The most basic interpretation. You use it for teaching, but it is taught with the understanding that it is not the only one, but one of an infinate number of various interpretations. The official bunkai is simply a teaching aid for those first learning the movment.

On another note, I think how many are taught with each kata is a relevent question in another sense. It bares to question what the mix of kata and bunkai is in each school and I for one wouldn't mind knowing. Like I was saying earlier we spend about 70% of the time on kata or perfecting kata movments. 30% is spent on bunkai. This is a gross over all percentage though and can vary greatly from class to class.

[shoshinkan]

I cna only comment on my expierience and that is once i have analysed a kata, ie removed the repeat movements im left with about 1/3rd of the kata most times, to use in the following way -

kihon

pair techniques (bunkai)

Randori kumite (against likely attacks)

As I try and understand the principle I try and get a very simple bunkai to each 'set' or single movement and drill that, hard. I then explore the other possabilitys of the technique ensuring to keep the key principle active.

This normally gives me 3 (on average) possabilitys from each 'piece' of the kata, however they fundamentally look very similair in motion.

Looking at kata in this way was/is proberly the biggest revelation (technically) in my karate practise so far, apart from some of the ethical and wellness aspects that im begining to see now.

But the most important thing is to remember, rome wasnt built in a day and bunkai is just part of the art not the whole art, no more imporant or less important than the other parts.

[cluelesskarateka]

I'll add my two pence here. When training bunkai (or making it up if thats what you want to call it) I tend to first work out one or two applications in response to punch and kick, which are trained in a formal manner, IE not necessarily realist, and more centered around principals and technique, as in gohon and ippon kumite. I will then try to find some grappling/locking/takedowns for the same movement, again practiced in a formal manner. Afterwards I'll try to create some more 'realistic' bunkai, where the attack is maybe one or at most two movements, and the response is in the form of a combination usually consisting of strikes, followed by either a lock throw or takedown, which requires no partner compliance and should be usuable in jiyu kumite (free sparring, not point sparring). Also after having found several applications for a series of move i may change the order to create different combinations.

Doing it this way is moderately throrough, though i know there is much more depth in kata, including things such as strategies for combat as well as actual moves.

I'm currnetly about four moves into Tekki Nidan doing it this way, and I've been looking at it for quite some time.....

[carl]

O.K. I'll bite. Hmmm. Bunkai. How many do I know? As many as my teacher taught me and as many as I learned from other sources and from practicing the katas over and over again. How many are there? Your guess is as good as mine. I have been studying Okinawan Goju-ryu for almost 15 years now, and there are so many more bunkai to learn. Do you think I'm being vague? I hope not. I answered as truthful as I can. But maybe somebody who has studied Okinawan Goju-ryu longer than I can answer better than me. Oh, and one more thing. Just how much bunkai does one need to know to defend oneself? Just wondering.

Regards,

Carl

[Fish]

Isn't the key thing to understand the principle involved - then the specific applications will flow from the principle?

[shoshinkan]

IMO Fish, you are right. however the motion must be drilled against a resisting opponent and various attacks to gain some value.

extreme example but learning the theory/priciple from a book/instructor is nice, but drilling 'teaches' you the theory and principle.

[Armbar]

Just how much bunkai does one need to know to defend oneself? Just wondering.

Carl

IMO, zero. One may learn a working principal (the whole purpose of kata) from a bunkai and then forget the bunkai all together. As long as those principals are retained and are usable by the practitioner in a time of need, the kata has done its intended job.

Isn't the key thing to understand the principle involved - then the specific applications will flow from the principle?

This is the idea, but what I want to know is how many your teacher generally pulls out of a kata to teach you when first learning the kata?