How does Tai chi chuan compare to Shaolin gung fu?

[Anakin_Skywalker]

I am fairly new to this whole martial arts scene? I have been reading a lot and have decided go with chinese martial arts because to me they go really deep and in detail in and are more scientific. This isn't knocking martial arts. its just a choice and kind of convient because the nearest martial arts studio is 10 mins walk and they teach chinese fighting.

Anyway I have read up on chinese gung fu and founf there are two types of arts hard and soft. Hard meaning muscular training and uses hard blocks and offensive. Then there is the soft martial arts that use softer, less muscle and strength and use yielding and is very defensive. Any way the school I went to only teach a stlye know as chern (or Chen) and yang Tai chi. At first I thought this is no use because it looked pretty slow and boring. I was looking for some real northern shaolin stuff. I asked the sifu how on earth does this compare to the all superior shaolin kung fu( I mean if I did this slow stuff in front of kung fu master i expect him to knock me to next thursday). He says it may take time but a good Tai chi master can take on a shaolin kung fu martial artist, I naturally thought he was on crack. I smiled and said I'll think about joining later. I have searched everywhere not a single UFC uses tai chi chuan as a style. I has no real tai chi stories. Does anyone know about this stuff. I need to let the gut before wednesday next week. thanks

[Shorin Ryuu]

First of all, using UFC to determine which martial arts you should take isn't the only way (or in my opinion, it isn't the best way). There are plenty of martial arts not done by UFC because people good in them don't care for such kind of tournaments or they simply aren't suited for the tournament arena (difficult to "play nice yet hard" so you don't maim/kill your opponent). At any rate, "true" Tai Chi frowns upon egotistical competition (or they would say something like that, I believe).

Secondly, doing Tai Chi forms slowly doesn't mean you will move very slowly during a fight. It serves several purposes to do it slowly (training, precision, biomechanical awareness, energy awareness, etc.). Tai Chi can be pretty darn offensive as well. It prides itself on passivity to defeat an opponent, but don't take that to mean you can't strike first.

If you want good Tai Chi stories or Chinese boxing (read: kung fu...) in general, maybe you should read some books by Robert Smith. I'm sure a decent library or store has them. Robert Smith was pretty much the first Westerner to write about Chinese martial arts in depth and seriousness. He trained with, under and met many great Chinese masters of a great many styles. I'd recommend his book Chinese Boxing for starters. He's a bit biased towards the softer styles (as am I, although my style is hard and soft).

Long story short, I'd recommend you try the Tai Chi place out. My only warning is that there are a great many frauds out there doing "Tai Chi", maybe even more so than other styles percentage-wise because it seems like a New Age type thing to do (despite being rather old). There are very sound principles of fighting that you can learn from Tai Chi.

[Anakin_Skywalker]

how effective is it in real life situation where you and possibly your family is threatened? how would you compare to hard shaolin gung fu? fighting is all about strength. And in Tai Chi they have no board breaking test like karate or shaolin kung fu. also they dont have body conditioning methods.

[fallen_milkman]

Tai Chi Chuan is very effective for fighting, but it can take longer to use effectively than other systems initially. Also, breaking boards does not equate to a more effective system. Neither is it true that fighting is all about strength. ALL kung fu styles stress meeting force with the least amount of resistance necessary. And again, wrong about the conditioning. They have no external conditioning like karate or external kung fu systems, but they do have an internal strengthening method.

[elbows_and_knees]

If you are looking for self defense - especially quick self defense, I would stay away from taiji. for one, it takes much longer to become proficient with and second, these days, it's hard to find a person who will show you the martial applications anyway.

strength plays a part in fighting, but fighting is not all about strength.

[Anakin_Skywalker]

Time is not a factor in my training. If it takes 20 years I am willing to learn. It is just how effective the art is that I am worried about. And I believe fighting is all about strength. How do you fight without strength?

[Spencer]

In its heyday and beginning Taijiquan stood up to a lot of external based martial art systems. (ie won in fights)

If someone has told you that you fight without strength in Taiji then you are asking the wrong person or you are in the wrong school!

(saying that I agree that Taijiquan is not about strength..ie overriding strength)

(see https://www.zhenwei.org for info on taijiquan)

[Anakin_Skywalker]

Then what is it about?

[monkeygirl]

Strength plays a part in fighting, but so do many other aspects:

speed (if they can see the punch coming an hour ahead of time, what's the point?)

technique (a strong, yet sloppy punch will be easy to detect and probably misplaced)

application (hitting the most effective spots)

strategy (outsmarting your opponent, adapting to their fighting style and learning how to beat them)

While I don'ts study a Chinese art, these are general principles of fighting, I believe. While strength is important, the stronger fighter does not always win. A smaller, weaker opponent can come out on top if they are smart and skilled.

There are also many self-defense techniques that require not very much force, such as joint locks, pressure points, etc... although I would definitely recommend still getting in a blow or two to keep from getting punched yourself while you're trying to subdue the opponent.

As I said, I don't study Chinese MA, so I may not be 100% in accordance with principles of those arts, but I think my points are fairly universal.

[Spencer]

Taijiquan = Ultimate Fist

In the context of Chinese martial arts, this does not mean that it is talking just about the hand at the end of your arm.

Traditionally you refer to a style as a "fist"

The implication (rather arrogantly actually I guess) is that Taiji is the best.

You could roughly sum up three theories of blocking (and I mean roughly)

The first is to take the punch or kick (as you would lets say, in Muay Thai or Boxing) with the least effort to avoid getting thumped. (The amount of force taken by the defendant is high (as much as the attacker is spending)

The second is to apply force at an angle to the oncoming punch or kick (or whatever). (the amount of force taken by the defender is medium and half of the force the attacker is spending)

The third is to apply force in the direction of the attackers punch or kick, changing the angle slightly to avoid taking the punch or kick. (the amount of force taken by the defendant is low (about ten percent of what the attacker is spending)

Now these three principles are real basic generalisations but simply put I would place

Muay Thai and Boxing in the first

Karate, Taekwondo and majority of Chinese MA in the second

and Taijiquan in the third.

Simple put if someone punches you in taiji you pull his punch not block his punch. This does require you to move as well (else you'll pottentially pull them in to hit you) but I'm sure you get the gist.

Now thats not to say that thats the only thing you do if someone punches, just an example of a generic response that highlights the difference. Let the attacker do all the hard work!

Its one of the reasons why Taijiquan has links with Taoism and the theories of Ying and Yang. Unfortunately there are an excessive amount of people just teaching Taiji for health reasons because they do not know the martial aspect of Taiji.

I'm lucky that my teacher teaches the traditional yang style two man form amongst others and knows the applications and can use them.

Oh and monkeygirl is right.. her general principles hold true amongst all martial arts.