Kata applications and complications

[Sauzin]

we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Kano's judo beat the best jujutsu school in japan, partially due to the reason we are discussing now. There is a difference between working the MOTION of the throw and APPLYING the throw on someone who doesn't want to be thrown. Kata cannot teach you that. This is why judoka focus on throwing. They don't even start teaching you the kata until around brown belt level.

If what you are trying to do is get extremely good at a relatively small group of techniques, designed for a relatively specific situation (such as specializing in grappler on grappler combat in a closed arena) then of course the best way to do it is to train drill upon drill with a partner. You set up the same situation you are training to deal with and you practice defenses and attacks that would be used for that situation. There is no better way. Plain and simple.

But as you start to add more situations, perhaps combat against a kicker, or combat against 2 kickers and a boxer, oh and maybe there's a chair and a table involved, then there starts to be too many situations to set up partnered drills for. What do you do then? Train drills that work in any situation? But they can't be just two man drills because those only work against one guy. So what's the point of a partner if it's limiting the scope of what you are training for?

What you need is drills that work against any number of different opponents that can be broken down into specific 2 or 3 or 4 man drills that even involve a chair or two if need be. This is kata. Training for a wide variety of situations requires different methods. Plain and simple. This is why kata exists.

[makiwaraman]

Uh, by jumping? I'd just like to mention that this doesn't represent all or even most of traditional karate. 99% of the time we don't jump, even in kata. We throw by disrupting our opponent's balance, having strong balance/basis of support, using the opponent's own momentum, and by maneuvering to positions that offer control. We practice this with kata that involves doing the same motions we would in a throw and we drill them with partners. I'd say the emphasis in our school is about 70% kata/solitary practice and 30% partner drilling. This allows us to refine the particulars in a technique and make the motion second nature in kata while still getting a feel for the application and response of an opponent.

Is that not what I said that jumps are throws, when being taught, you get now you jump like this later you find out its a throw and yes the proceeding move is to put your opponent off balance and or make them light.

Regards maki

[Sauzin]

Is that not what I said that jumps are throws, when being taught, you get now you jump like this later you find out its a throw and yes the proceeding move is to put your opponent off balance and or make them light.

Regards maki

I'm sorry but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying most karate styles don't jump at all when throwing. These styles don't practice jumping when learning to throw nor do they practice jumps in kata or bunkai or in any circumstance involving a throw. My style would be one of them. Goju-ryu was another. I've also never seen an Issin-ryu or Ueichi-ryu stylist jump to throw. While I've got limited Shorin-ryu knowledge, I haven't seen them do that in their kata either. Now that's not to say I haven't heard of it. But I think it is a gross misconception to say that karateka have been practicing throws by jumping around for hundreds of years. If this has been the case, it has been a rare, and shall I say unique karateka who has done this. Most styles practice throws without jumps.

[shoshinkan]

Jumping is common in many japanesse styles however, from my expierience okinawan styles tend to 'skip'.

However wether it be jump, skip or turn makiwaramans point is valid, it can sifgnify a throw or takedown, and the motion does train the body without a partner if mechanically performed correct.

[elbows_and_knees]

But as you start to add more situations, perhaps combat against a kicker, or combat against 2 kickers and a boxer, oh and maybe there's a chair and a table involved, then there starts to be too many situations to set up partnered drills for. What do you do then? Train drills that work in any situation? But they can't be just two man drills because those only work against one guy. So what's the point of a partner if it's limiting the scope of what you are training for?

What you need is drills that work against any number of different opponents that can be broken down into specific 2 or 3 or 4 man drills that even involve a chair or two if need be. This is kata. Training for a wide variety of situations requires different methods. Plain and simple. This is why kata exists.

My problem with drills is that they are not live. however, I do understand the need for them, and also for kata. I like forms - I think they're great- but I don't think they are ideal for training throws. kata are like catalogs of the system - they are guides to unlocking the techniques to your system. They also provide you with a means to create drills, as you said.

[shoshinkan]

no one said they were the BEST way to train throws ultimatly, just they do trian the motion of throwing for solo training.

i think its fair to assume that kata is the backbone of all classical arts, and therefore all techniques must appear within forms - or they are not passed on correctly.

Obviously its down to us with what we do with them, how we apply them, what we see in them.