Kata applications and complications

[cluelesskarateka]

Sauzin, I think your post helped me more than anything i could say, "We like to grapple so that we can get into a better position to hit you some more." Grappling is used as a means to an end, putting you in a better position to strike, and as such the emphasis is on striking, as you grapple to strike, not strike to grapple. As you said at the end of your post, it's about movement, and being in the right situation to throw/lock/strike, my objection is that people are trying to make every situation one for a lock or throw, and ignoring strike even though they may be more appropriate.

Also, i don't feel grappling is inherently complicated, i feel that people are making it unnecessarily complicated. And if it's used in the right situation it won't seem complicated!

Hah! My ignorance provides me with invincibility!

But seriously, sorry if i'm offending by ranting with misconceptions...

[makiwaraman]

How else can one train to throw someone ?

by throwing them. that's how we do it in judo. Throwing eachother and doing uchi komi. our throws aren't hidden in kata. in the context of kata, I would find the throwing segments, break them out and drill them individually.

The kata were originally devised so that a person could train in their fighting system, on their own so there would be no option of throwing someone else in training. So on our own we jump in karate, if you train with a partner we throw eachother.

Regards maki

[shoshinkan]

grappling is only complicated if you are trying to grapple a well trained grappler.

Personally i think all ranges of combat have their place, karate is a complete art and should be trained accordingly, it really is all in the kata.

I think different styles/instructors place different emphasis on aspects of karate according to their beliefs/expierience and training, the art remains the same.

[elbows_and_knees]

The kata were originally devised so that a person could train in their fighting system, on their own so there would be no option of throwing someone else in training. So on our own we jump in karate, if you train with a partner we throw eachother.

Regards maki

yeah, but you can't realistically train throws on your own, unless you are doing inner tube drills or something, which we do.

[elbows_and_knees]

Sauzin, I think your post helped me more than anything i could say, "We like to grapple so that we can get into a better position to hit you some more." Grappling is used as a means to an end, putting you in a better position to strike, and as such the emphasis is on striking, as you grapple to strike, not strike to grapple.

That depends on whom you ask. Some people will strike to grapple. If I am fighting a better striker than myself, it would be stupid to strike with him. So what do I do? use my footwork and strikes to get me on the inside so that I can tie his limbs up and throw him.

Also, i don't feel grappling is inherently complicated, i feel that people are making it unnecessarily complicated. And if it's used in the right situation it won't seem complicated!

Id depends on whom you are grappling. If you are grappling someone who is a trained grappler, you will not feel this way. If you are yourself not that good of a grappler and you are grappling someone much heavier than you, you will not feel this way.

[makiwaraman]

The kata were originally devised so that a person could train in their fighting system, on their own so there would be no option of throwing someone else in training. So on our own we jump in karate, if you train with a partner we throw eachother.

Regards maki

yeah, but you can't realistically train throws on your own, unless you are doing inner tube drills or something, which we do.

IMO Karate- ka have been training to throw people on their own by jumping for hundreds of years, The effort required to launch yourself is the same as needed to throw someone else and by jumping you are training the muscles needed to do this. Therefore the katas are a complete system and you can train realistically to throw on your own.

regards maki

[Shorin Ryuu]

I agree that some people work out bunkai for themselves that are unrealistically complicated. You can have bunkai that have several steps, but the key is that they work in succession or somewhat in isolation. That's why partner work is essential in testing your bunkai. There's been many occassions where I work out a bunkai in my head based on a merging of concepts and movement and it works pretty well. Other times, it just turns out to be impractical, either because of my limited knowledge of the human body or what-have-you. In some cases, a failed bunkai is useful because it highlights a principle or something that I was not focusing on (or aware of) before. Obviously there is always give and take when doing bunkai practice. If you know what's coming (or even if you don't), foiling the bunkai is much easier. At the same time, the person performing it isn't breaking your arm or face in order to make you "more compliant". You simply have to work at varying degrees on the compliance spectrum to figure what's practical and what's not.

As people have mentioned, striking makes someone more vulnerable to grappling and grappling makes someone more vulnerable to striking.

As for me personally, I tend to have several levels of bunkai for movements in my kata. I agree sometimes there is something to be said for a simple soft parry with a simultaneous strike. I'm a big believer in simultaneous action during my bunkai if we are considering the "pure striking" type of thing.

I do tend to have both striking and grappling when it comes to my bunkai, however. I believe my style Shorin Ryu is centered on the takedown. Once the opponent is down, he should be incapacitated. Your individual preponderance of striking or grappling is just that, individual. However, I think a good foundation needs to be built in both areas for anyone to be considered a good karateka. That isn't anything new in karate.

I think the recent ushering in of books and videos about kata bunkai as opposed to what was in the past is simply a matter of exposure. In the early days, many karateka, such as American GIs didn't spend enough time in a system to learn higher level grappling and things which are fundamentally inherent to Okinawan karate (or simply weren't shown or didn't figure it out). Now that more Americans (insert Non-Okinawans/Japanese) are "into" karate, keep coming back and train in a dedicated manner, more people are "figuring this out" or are being overtly shown by the Okinawans. As such, there is simply more knowledge about the deeper concepts in karate in circulation then there was before.

The other reason is that the current "fad" is towards grappling-based systems. Therefore some karateka feel the need to overly pronounce the grappling nature of their style. Some of this is partly because the perception that karate has NO grappling whatsoever. In order to correct this, there is an almost undue emphasis on it in order to reach a happy median.

Again, personally I like to do a mixture of both. I don't think karate is "primarily" one or the other. It is only the individual practitioner or method of teaching that may emphasize one more than the other.

[elbows_and_knees]

IMO Karate- ka have been training to throw people on their own by jumping for hundreds of years, The effort required to launch yourself is the same as needed to throw someone else and by jumping you are training the muscles needed to do this. Therefore the katas are a complete system and you can train realistically to throw on your own.

regards maki

we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Kano's judo beat the best jujutsu school in japan, partially due to the reason we are discussing now. There is a difference between working the MOTION of the throw and APPLYING the throw on someone who doesn't want to be thrown. Kata cannot teach you that. This is why judoka focus on throwing. They don't even start teaching you the kata until around brown belt level.

Edited July 13, 2005 by elbows_and_knees

[Sauzin]

Hah! My ignorance provides me with invincibility!

But seriously, sorry if i'm offending by ranting with misconceptions...

No offense, none at all. I just kind of reacted when you used Okinawan Goju to point out an art that does not focus on grappling when actually they do but as a means to an ends.

grappling is only complicated if you are trying to grapple a well trained grappler.

Id depends on whom you are grappling. If you are grappling someone who is a trained grappler, you will not feel this way. If you are yourself not that good of a grappler and you are grappling someone much heavier than you, you will not feel this way.

I don't entirely agree with these statements either. I think it depends on how you view complicated. What I mean by complicated is when a maneuver you are doing requires several motions that rely on very specific and not altogether common circumstances. Such as a motion that only works when you block a certain way, move the arm to 3 specific positions, apply pressure at a specific place and relies on the guy just standing there for 5 seconds while you do it. To me this is too complicated. Movements should have a certain tolerance for the different things an opponent might do or positions he might be in and they should still work. On top of this the less things required to make it work the better.

Now this doesn't mean that getting or learning to do the movement right is simple. This can be a very complicated process and rely on several principles of motion. There can be a lot to learn. But the end result is a good grappler who knows when to move what direction and how. And the best make it look simple.

IMO Karate- ka have been training to throw people on their own by jumping for hundreds of years, The effort required to launch yourself is the same as needed to throw someone else and by jumping you are training the muscles needed to do this. Therefore the katas are a complete system and you can train realistically to throw on your own.

regards maki

Uh, by jumping? I'd just like to mention that this doesn't represent all or even most of traditional karate. 99% of the time we don't jump, even in kata. We throw by disrupting our opponent's balance, having strong balance/basis of support, using the opponent's own momentum, and by maneuvering to positions that offer control. We practice this with kata that involves doing the same motions we would in a throw and we drill them with partners. I'd say the emphasis in our school is about 70% kata/solitary practice and 30% partner drilling. This allows us to refine the particulars in a technique and make the motion second nature in kata while still getting a feel for the application and response of an opponent.

[elbows_and_knees]

I don't entirely agree with these statements either. I think it depends on how you view complicated. What I mean by complicated is when a maneuver you are doing requires several motions that rely on very specific and not altogether common circumstances. Such as a motion that only works when you block a certain way, move the arm to 3 specific positions, apply pressure at a specific place and relies on the guy just standing there for 5 seconds while you do it. To me this is too complicated. Movements should have a certain tolerance for the different things an opponent might do or positions he might be in and they should still work. On top of this the less things required to make it work the better.

Now this doesn't mean that getting or learning to do the movement right is simple. This can be a very complicated process and rely on several principles of motion. There can be a lot to learn. But the end result is a good grappler who knows when to move what direction and how. And the best make it look simple.

I agree with that... I was assuming a different definition of 'complicated'.