Kata applications and complications

[cluelesskarateka]

Hiya, newby to the forums, but i've been reading them for awhile.

I've recently been looking at a lot of books on kata applications, as quite a lot seem to have been coming out recently, and it seems an awful lot of the authors seem to be turning the kata into Aikido routines. I know there are a few exceptions, but it seems worryingly frequent that people are trying to turn every move in the kata into a lock or throw, as opposed to more 'traditional' block counter applications, which are predominantly striking based.

Thoughts anyone....

[makiwaraman]

Hello and welcome, by Aikido routines I assume your are talking about locks and throws. There are many more locks and throws in karate than people think for example most if not all jumps represent a throw in kata's. How else can one train to throw someone ?

I have been taught that there are no set bunkai but many variations and you should interpret them the way that best suits you.

Regards maki

[carl]

Hiya, newby to the forums, but i've been reading them for awhile.

I've recently been looking at a lot of books on kata applications, as quite a lot seem to have been coming out recently, and it seems an awful lot of the authors seem to be turning the kata into Aikido routines. I know there are a few exceptions, but it seems worryingly frequent that people are trying to turn every move in the kata into a lock or throw, as opposed to more 'traditional' block counter applications, which are predominantly striking based.

Thoughts anyone....

Welcome, cluelesskarateka. I like your name. Very humble.

Although I myself haven't seen what you are talking about, I prefer the block and counter with a strike.

Carl

[jarrettmeyer]

...it seems worryingly frequent that people are trying to turn every move in the kata into a lock or throw, as opposed to more 'traditional' block counter applications, which are predominantly striking based.

I guess I've been taught that the "traditional" karate techniques included grabs, locks, and throws. However, because of whatever influences, many of the striking techniques have become much more predominant.

I think that balance is the key. You shouldn't do so much striking that your grappling suffers. Nor should you do so much grappling that your striking suffers.

This is why the kata are subject to interpretation. I've even read an interpretation that states that there are no blocks in the Pinan kata.

[isshinryu5toforever]

Today's karate is about controlling your opponent, making sure that he can't hurt you or himself. That is why many lock and hold applications have been taught. Yet, many of them can be turned into the deadly applications that were seen many years ago. Even the "blocks" weren't blocks they were strikes to specific pressure points in the arm or neck, or any other area. Remember for every part of every kata, there are numerous bunkai that can be seen differently through the eyes of different people.

[cluelesskarateka]

Hi guys, just to clear my position, I don't disagree with there being locks and throws in karate, sometimes you'd have to be blind not to see them (opening move of Gankaku/Chinto, final move's of Heian Godan [not necessarily Pinan Godan though], yamazuki in Bassai Dai to name a few), it's just i feel some people over emphasize them, and try to make everything into a lock or throw, in the book Barefoot Zen (can't remember who it's by) the author shows applications to Naifanchin/Tekki which are excessively complicated and result in an Aikdio style Nikyo immobilisation. I feel some people are trying to shoe-horn in techniques, which results in them seeming overly complicated and unnatural, and also by-passing some very simple effective techniques.

Finally (as an end to my ranting ) while i'll admit there has been a bias towards striking (mainly as a result of people not finishing their 'education' before beginning to teach) karate still is primarily a striking art, with relatively limited throwing and locking techniques, if you doubt this, look at traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu.

*prays hoping the post actually says what i want it to say*

[jarrettmeyer]

I feel some people are trying to shoe-horn in techniques, which results in them seeming overly complicated and unnatural, and also by-passing some very simple effective techniques.

Now this, I would agree, is a problem. There are some very simple throws, locks, and grapples. There are some very difficult throws, locks, and grapples. Putting in an excessively difficult maneuver is just as bad as putting in a backflip. I think you want to stay as simple as possible to get the job done. That may be a strike; that may be a grab.

[Sauzin]

...Finally (as an end to my ranting ) while i'll admit there has been a bias towards striking (mainly as a result of people not finishing their 'education' before beginning to teach) karate still is primarily a striking art, with relatively limited throwing and locking techniques, if you doubt this, look at traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu.

I really have to disagree with you here. Maybe I'm being to picky about this but I think this sends the wrong message. First of all I practiced Traditional Okinawan Meibukan Goju-ryu for a year and a half on the island of Okinawa. There the term "primarily strikes" meant slightly more then 50%. The way I had it explained to me was, "We like to grapple so that we can get into a better position to hit you some more." Goju-ryu has a lot of grappling in it. At least as much as any other karate art I've seen. It was certainly more emphasized then what I've seen in Shotokan. And when I say grappling I'm talking about arm locks, guillotines, head manipulations, extensions, wrist locks, arm locks, grabs and other balance defeating maneuvers.

The way I view it is it's about movement. If you move well then you can strike, you can throw, you can lock, and you can take down. What makes one work well makes the others work well. Don't get me wrong I'm all for simple, but grappling doesn't have to be complicated. In fact it shouldn't be. If it is you'll have a tough time making it work. A throw, lock, or break should be as simple as a punch, kick, block, or elbow. The same rules apply. Circles do similar things in blocks as they do in throws. Going as direct from point "A" to point "B" makes a good throw as well as a good strike. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the fundamental principles are the same. The application and position of opponent is what makes the difference. Really to be prepared for any combatant you need to be comfortable doing whatever it takes. Sometimes an opening for a strike presents itself and other times it's easier to take the guy down. And this isn't Aikido. It's any martial art that practices good technique and knows how to apply them in any situation. The technique must fit the situation, the situation cannot be made to fit the technique.

[shoshinkan]

My understanding of okinawan karate is that inherent within the kata are a number of responses possible from the same movements, ie they mean different things in different situations.

I will try and make sense with a simple example, the basic punch.

It could be that we simply punch, as it looks.

Or we could be grabed on the wrist, the same movement means we turn the attackers wrist and pull back sharply (hikite), offbalancing them and strike with our other hand - the punch.

Or we could not punch them, but strike the limb with the 'punch' to lock, control controling with the hikite hand.

So to me the moton of the movements is what is important, and to drill the various possible applications of that motion.

However i agree that of late many are showing the grappling/locking/throwing side of the arts above the simple punch response. I think this is because it sells, and more people are interested in the explanation of the motions of karate nowdays (a good thing!).

However, and specifically aimed at okinawan karate, conditioning is part of training, ie the fist (makiwara) and this is done because the punch motion works, as a punch !

Im rambling...........................................

[elbows_and_knees]

How else can one train to throw someone ?

by throwing them. that's how we do it in judo. Throwing eachother and doing uchi komi. our throws aren't hidden in kata. in the context of kata, I would find the throwing segments, break them out and drill them individually.