Blind folded Chi Sao

[White Warlock]

As simple as it sounds, in the martial arts there are two senses we are dependent upon. Sight and touch. Sight is more relied upon at further ranges, whilst touch is more relied upon at closer ranges. Problems arise when people have a higher dependency on one or the other in the ranges they are less applicable to. In almost all cases, the higher erroneous dependency is sight at short range. Blind practices, whether they be chi sao blindfolded, darkroom wrestling, or some other blind training activity, help to eliminate, or at least minimize dependency on the sense of sight, which is less applicable to the range(s) at which you are emphasizing.

If that is not important, i fail to see what is.

[stonecrusher69]

in the words of Bruce Lee '' Feel don't think" We can react better to a highly developed sense of touch then relying on our eyes for information.

[ovine king]

and that's where one of the flaws lie; you can only feel when there is something to feel and that's why i feel it is more of a test rather than training method. during normal chi-sau, we switch between seeing, looking and feeling as it progresses. when blindfolded, you are limited to only one means of sensitivity.

[sdargie]

It's still training for the reason you just mentioned. You walk around all day touching things while looking so there's no shortage of training there. How often do you walk around your house with your eyes closed doing the same activities? Blindfolding yourself is that training. The test is when you're fighting and your sensitivity is as advanced as your sight.

[ovine king]

But doing things with a blindfold doesn't automatically make you do that thing better, even when it's a sensitivity thing (walking aroun with a blindfold isn't going to make you stop walking into things). You'd get used to it and hence make you less prone to over reacting but it doesn't actually make your sensitivity any better. It'll make you respond more accurately but that isn't increasing sensitivity. In fact, I'm going to make a boldish statement and say that to say that blind-folded chi sau increases your sensitivity is a massive mis-nomer as to what the exercise does.

[sdargie]

But doing things with a blindfold doesn't automatically make you do that thing better

Nobody has said this was a quick fix.

even when it's a sensitivity thing (walking aroun with a blindfold isn't going to make you stop walking into things).

Nobody said that you would avoid things without touching them. You have to be connected to the person/thing to feel how it's going to react next.

You'd get used to it and hence make you less prone to over reacting but it doesn't actually make your sensitivity any better.

Learning not to overreact IS the point of the excercise. Feeling exactly how much force it takes to turn the doorknob for example, or learning exactly how much force it takes to deflect a punch so you can save that energy and stay calm.

It'll make you respond more accurately but that isn't increasing sensitivity. In fact, I'm going to make a boldish statement and say that to say that blind-folded chi sau increases your sensitivity is a massive mis-nomer as to what the exercise does.

I don't think it's that bold. The word sensitivity is a little limiting to what we're talking about.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sensitivity

Just curious, what is a an appropriate name for the goal of chi sao?

[ovine king]

i say it's bold because there are people who swear that blind-folded chi sau's purpose is to increase sensitivity. Anyway, your response is exactly what I am talking about, with the exception of the first because I never said anyone did. The point of my first statement is that just because you remove your sight from the training, it doesn't mean that your other senses are going to worked harder. Because chi-sau is only relevant when contact is made and contact being only a part of sparring, only doing one part in isolation seems to be only looking at part of the picture. Of course i see the relevence of doing it stand alone but i just don't how it can be perceived as being more important than the other contituant parts, as some do. Another point is that you don't need to be blind-folded to learn not to over-react. In fact, I'd argue that because you are removing other senses from the event, you are only doing harm when you re-introduce them.

In chinese, the term that we use is closest translated to 'feel' and this interpretation encompasses all aspects of feeling from touch to sight and even sound. The purpose of chi sau is to test. In it you test your stance, your structure, your positions, your reactions, your speed, your strength, your abilty to read, your ability to lead and lord alone knows how many other things. It is through the testing that you learn what you can or can't do and what you need to work on. How you do it and the speed at which you roll is entirely dependent on you and how you want to do it. It isn't a fixed thing and in a way, doing it blind folded kinda fixes your focus too much. I much prefer to drill people allowing them to see what i am doin when I play "tricks" on them.

[sdargie]

Of course i see the relevence of doing it stand alone but i just don't how it can be perceived as being more important than the other contituant parts, as some do.

I hope nobody thinks that this is the most important thing you can do in training. Everything should be balanced for the best effect but this is one out many ways to break see the nuts and bolts of a technique.

Another point is that you don't need to be blind-folded to learn not to over-react. In fact, I'd argue that because you are removing other senses from the event, you are only doing harm when you re-introduce them.

That's definetly true. A few weeks ago I was having a fencing lesson with my father and I couldn't get the feel of a parry for a number of reasons; an foil is MUCH lighter than a bokken, there is no sidestepping in sport fencing, the parry only works if the sword is held at a certain angle and the fulcrum of a fencing parry is in a different place than a kendo parry to name few things. Anyway, he told me to close my eyes and just worry about pushing the sword far enough away to make me safe and not just feel safe. I nailed in a few tries. I did lose all that progress when I opened my eyes, BUT, I now had the correct technique in my body for a reference.

It's a wonderful means to an end but it's just that, a means. I would never tell a mugger to wait while I put on my blindfold and hakema.

[stonecrusher69]

Your right Blind folded chi sao does not increase your sensitivity.What I ment was you become more awear and through practice your able to read your opponent better.

[White Warlock]

The continuing debate seems to be mostly about semantics.

Just to touch upon what i mentioned earlier, and what seems to be the contention ovine king is presenting, blindfold practice doesn't increase your senses' ability to perform, but it can increase your awareness on how to apply your senses. It may very well be that one is 'ignoring' the signals presented by one of his/her senses. By isolating that sense (in this case, touch), or by removing the dominant sense (in this case, sight), one is able to better realize what it is they are 'ignoring,' and thus understand what it is they must 'consciously' not ignore until they have reached a point where 'not' ignoring is subconscious.

In this way, you essentially are increasing your sensitivity to your senses, not necessarily increasing the functions of your senses. I.e., 20/200 vision isn't going to increase to 20/20 vision merely because you give it more attention, or isolate it from all the other senses. The limits of your senses are concrete, consistent (unless there is a physical change to the organ or organs that provide the sensory information). But the limits your mind imposes on you in recognizing what your senses present... that is abstract, and thus inconsistent.

Most every training exercise is there to strengthen the communication between mind and body, not to cause organs or body parts to perform at 'super-normal' levels.