Blind folded Chi Sao

[stonecrusher69]

I like to start a discusion about blind folded chi sao.How many train it and what are the pros and cons? Do you feel it is a better method the common way?

[Menjo]

i have never heard of the style, what is it?

[ovine king]

I think it is misguiding. Doing sticky hand exercises whilst blindfolded has a purpose but it isn't the be all and end all of training. One of the things taught in wing chun is awareness and as such you train, like in most martial arts, to be watching the middle ground so that you learn to read signals that might give away people's intentions. Whilst training chi caus blindfolded does test your chi sau, I'm not convinced that too much emphasis should be put upon it. Another thing I am not pleased with is how many modern wing chun teachers seem to high-light blindfolded chi sau almost as a supreme expression of wing chun when it is, to me, just another training exercise.

In my mind, the blindfold isn't needed and in fact, I think that without it, you are more free to see and test things that you know your partner can actually see. It's like the old saying about feeling. While it is all good being able to feel something happening, if you can't see it either, I think that is only half of it. besides, feeling is something that occurs during initial contact. A part of wing chun deals with pre-contact which once again, is something to do with awareness and sight.

[busling]

We occasionally practice Chi Sao with our eyes closed. When we do this usually just one person out of the pair is instructed to close their eyes. Often both people will close theirs with out a second thought and happily continue their training.

I agree that it is not everything in Chi Sao training; however I find that it is highly valuable.

I find that when doing Chi Sao with the eyes closed the brain is better able to process the incoming signals. This I think is because the eyes are not sending useless information to the brain.

Part of our level 8 grading (of 10 levels, before master levels) is to do several rounds of blind folded Chi Sao sparring. This is again tested in the level 10 grading (Gold Belt).

[stonecrusher69]

practing chi sao with your eyes closed is not the same as blindfolded.With your eyes closed you can easly open them at any time.Blind folded chi sao is the next step up when learning with your eyes open.Its much harder to do chi sao with your eyes closed then when them open.When their closed you have to totally rely on your sensitivity which is what your trying to develope.

I never said chi sao is the be all end all of your training however,its a very important part of the training and takes a very long time to get good at.One thing chi sao developes that can not be developed through say sparring is the correct use and types of energy.Without a high skill in chi sao it would be very difficult to learn softness and how to relax and how to use stucture under presure.All soft style have some form of chi sao and that is because we do not use brute force to overcome our oppent.without chi sao practice wing chun would be just another hard style.

[ovine king]

Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying it isn't important nor am I saying it is an easy game to play. What I am saying is that to me, it is too narrow minded in its approach. Yes being able to play chi sau blindfolded is good but it still isn't complete chi sau. Chi sau involves things such as giveing/yielding centre, false centres, cutting angles, shifts and other subtle pushes and changes in direction. While some of these can be done whilst blindfolded, you are missing an element if you cannot see or make the other person thinks he is seeing, something else happening. That misleading is one of the key aspects of chi sau by which I mean the confusing of the mind between what you see, what you feel and what is really going on.

The other thing I am not too keen with regarding the over emphasis of chi sau is that when you are sparring properly and with other people of other styles, the sticking moment is very, very short. From my personal experience, concerntrating too much on chi sau invariably means you don't spend as much time working or drilling basics with the pressure required to simulate what might be a real attack.

In most chi sau games, that pressure just isn't there and so even though it trains your sensitivity to a dgree, I have to question how relevant it is when the likely attack I will face will, in most circumstances, not resemble anything i'd come across normally during chi sau.

Again, don't get me wrong. I do a lot of chi sau and I love it. I just don't rank it as being a better owr worse type of exercise as I believe that all forms of training has to be done. As for blind-folded chi sau, I see it as being a variation of chi sau and not a better or worse way or doing it, just a different way that focuses on something else.

[stonecrusher69]

i don't disagree with you..Blind folded chi sao should not replace regular chi sao practice and all the other types of drills.I just place it in high regards to the training.Past WC masters have put a lot of emphises on it for a good reason.It just seems to me the youger WCers don't value it as much.Some think its almost useless.

[ovine king]

In a way, I see blind folded chi sau as more of a means to test something more than a direct way to train something. The learning of feel is a slow process and while being blinded does force you to be more precise, it doesn't actually get you to feel quicker. In fact, some might say and I can see the reasoning behind it, that the extra pressure that a blind-fold adds to the game of chi sau can actually detract from the process.

[busling]

ovine king, I see what you are saying about pressure. I find that my mind tells me this will be hard, but after a minute or so, it becomes a lot easier and the mind relaxes.

[sdargie]

Chi sao(sp?) is one of my favorite things to do at practice. In fact, I try to do as many techniques possible with my eyes closed to really refine my sensitivity and not really too much on sight. (What if you are fighting in a DARK alley?)

My grandfather was the first person, at least in America, to teach the blind to fence so I have an inherent curiousity as to how far I can develop my other senses.

In training we also vary chi sao to go beyond pushing someone off balance. We'll try to land punches, use kotegaeshi, juijenage, etc. and move around the room to keep it interesting. The last time we did this, nage (I'll use Aikido terms) was blindfolded and defending themselves against ukes punches, shoves, throws, etc. while trying to find that moment where they could enter and control uke by being sensitive to their openings. It's rediculously tough at first but after a while I was able to duck two full forced punches with ukes right hand by feelinig how their left shoulder was shifting and then irimi nage them. It's a pretty cool awareness once you relax into it.