Ignorance of Western Martial Arts

[UseoForce]

With the exception of boxing and freestyle/Greco wrestling, which have seen a return to credibility since MMA became popular, there is a terrible ignorance of Western martial arts in the United States (I can't speak for other countries.)

There are so many great western martial arts, including:

Fencing

Archery

Savate

Catch wrestling (I REALLY think this should be more popular)

Pankration (No, it's not just another term for MMA)

Various forms of stick fighting

German forms of sword, polearm, dagger, knife, unarmed, etc.

Various wrestiling styles, including some that strongly resemble judo and jiu-jitsu (Many scholars think jiu-jitsu is based on pankration techniques spread by Alexander the Great's troops)

Too many to count...also, many are not named in the way jiu-jitsu is, rather by the creator (Such as Talhoffer methods)

A huge part of the problem is availibilty, of course. But if these arts were in as high of demand as they should be, there would be schools all over the place.

Why do you think there is such a lack of interest?

Edited July 15, 2005 by UseoForce

[aefibird]

Partly because of the avilability - schools aren't available, so people don't train in the arts, so there aren't many schools, so people don't train in the art... etc etc.

Also, some people just buy into the whole "MA from the East" thing. They think of China or Japan and assume that's it when it comes to MA - look at the way TKD and TSD were marketed as Korean Karate in the 60's and 70's. Karate was something people had heard of, so everyone wanted to be in on that bandwagon.

Same with Shaolin - there's a lot of clubs jumped on the Shaolin bandwagon because it's a popular term and conjures up mystical images for non-MAists.

That's partly why most Asian MA's tend to be more popular than Western MA's - it's more 'mystical' or 'authentic' or whathaveyou.

I borrowed a martial arts book from the library once which even stated as fact that ALL MA's were invented in either China, Japan or Korea. Now, leaving aside other Asian MA's (such as Muay Thai for the most obvious example), what happened to all the other MA's in the world? Obviously the writers of that (poorly written) book have never heard of Boxing...

[UseoForce]

I agree on all counts.

Of course, with the popularity of "no nonsense" "street" martial arts for self-defense, wouldn't the western martial art philosophy be what people are looking for (Most western martial arts are/were extremely "hardcore." They train rigorously, and old medieval instructional texts depict the true nastiness of combat with blood and severed limbs. You don't see that in today's MA books) Not that you'd get attacked by a mugger wielding a longsword, but the dagger, knife, stick, and unarmed material would be very suitable, far more effective than most traditional Eastern MA would be for modern street combat.

Oh, because of the surge of patriotism in America, shouldn't American MA be popular.

Carch wrestling was developed in America .

[y2_sub]

I agree , western martial arts are ignored .

However , you listed a group of armed fighting styles (knife , dagger , sword etc , etc .. ) generally , when speaking of eastern martial arts , we are referring to unarmed combat , for instance karate = empty hand , jujitsu was developed for the samurai warriors who lost their arms . When speaking of unarmed fighting styles , Chinese , Okinawan and Japanese system seam to be far more effective adn popular than western styles

Savate is French kickboxing right ??

[McNerny]

Hey,

y2_sub, as far as I know it is quite similar to kickboxing. Some differences I know of are that they use some takedowns and also have a ranking system which has to do with glove color.

[Rick]

Savate, as far as i know, also uses unconventional methods of kicking, such as throwing a front kick and making contact with the heel of your foot rather than the ball. I believe it was designed as a method of self-defence for the upper-class men, who would also use their canes as weapons. It's like a weird form of kungfu, in that it has unarmed and armed aspects. I'm no expert though.

Also, back to the topic. There seems to be an immense trust put into the asian man. If he's asian, and he's teaching martial arts, then he must be legitimate right? Wrong! Some people think that if the instructor isn't asian then he can't possibly be legitimate. Therefore, if a westerner is teaching a style that very few people have heard of, then the majority of people are going to think he's a fraud. It's basically the whole Mr Miyagi thing happening - everyone wants their instructor to be like the one in the karate kid. Heh, even though "Pat" Noriyuki (?) Morita has never done martial arts.

Rick.

[glockmeister]

Useoforce,

I have thought the same thing myself. Maybe I can kinda give a good answer as to why alot of these styles are not and maybe will not ever be as popular as Karate.

First, lets take a look at the TMA craze that took place in the 60's and 70's. Up till that point, we Americans had Boxing. That was as American as apple pie. It was also brutal. When the MA craze happened there were those that believed that it was the wave of the future, with all those fancy moves, impressive kicks and of course allthe mysticism that surrounded the ancient arts. There were those of course, who turned their nose up at MA from the orient and thought of Boxing as fighting like a "red blooded American" I can remember when I was little that kicking was thought of as "for sissies" and real men only used their fists, blah blah blah..."

Years however, of Kung Fu theatre every sunday, Bruce Lee movies, David Carridine movies, Chuck Norris, then up to the Karate KId, to Jackie Chan, Steven Segal, etc. they have managed to pretty much put the majority of Americans in the mindset that when they think of self defense/fighting, this is what they think of. They think of Macho robes, black belts, bare feet, bowing, fancy high kicks, mysticism, dragons, etc.

That is the problem with alot of things here in America, most people get most of their ideologies on just about every subject from telivision. ) What to wear, who to vote for, what kind of car to drive, crime and punishment and the list goes on..

You never really see movies about Pankration, or movies about Catch wrestlers or champion fencers. we still basically have either "Rocky" (boxing) or the steven segal/chuck norris stuff (eastern martial arts)

Things become popular for the proleteriat when the movie makers make them popular. Needless to say, it doesn't always have a positive effect because then McDojos begin popping up on every corner being taught by people wanting to "cash in" on the latest MA craze.

Things that are flashy and "neat" are what gets popular in America and that's the way it probably and unfortunately always will be. Even eastern MA that arent full of flashy kicks and moves tend to stay unpopular here.

You dont think the movie makers would have made a "SUMO KID" movie do you? Why not? because they would have thought of that as boring because not enough fancy stuff. And I have never ran across a SUMO school anywhere.

Years of Hollywood cannot be undone in a short time. that is why Krav Maga, Pankration,Catch wrestling, Sambo,Fencing, and all the others are not as popular even though they are highly effective fighting/self defense styles. We should count our blessing though because history has shown that the more popular something gets, the more money making phonies show up to open up McDojos.

[pressureguy]

I am fascinated by the non-oriental martial arts, but realize that people can't know what is not readily available. Really, who can drive 300 miles one way to take a class in a rare style?

To add to this thread, here are a few non-oriental (or close to it) styles that some here may never have heard of:

Tahtib - Egyption martial art

Capoeira - popular African/Brazilian style that many have heard of by now

Juego del palo - Stick Fencing of the Canary Islands

Lua Hãlau O Kaihewalu - Hawaiian martial art

Shileigh Bata - Irish stick fighting style

Glima - style of wrestling in Iceland

Sambo - Russian style with some jiujitsu roots

English quarterstaff - style based on that English weapon

Also, there are some styles popping up now based on American Native American weapons and hand to hand techniques, but those have only recently been put into defined systems, but are nonetheless very real styles now.

I highly recommend checking out this site/group which deals esclusively with these styles:

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/western-arts/

pressureguy

[UseoForce]

Glockmeister said:

We should count our blessing though because history has shown that the more popular something gets, the more money making phonies show up to open up McDojos.

True, but not always. Very seldom do you hear of a BJJ mcdojo. Also, the lack of formal ranking in most WMA would make it harder for frauds to sell the same promises they do with eastern martial arts.

Of course, people would prbly come up with their own rank systems...

I just wish WMA got the respect they deserve!

You know what would be cool? A guy trained in catch wrestling, savate, and german grappling (plus boxing) goes into a UFC match and dominates his opponent. Then WMA would get the same respect that BJJ does!

Some people wouldn't like that, but I think it'd be great!

[glockmeister]

BJJ is still not anywheer near as popular as say TKD for example. Thats why there aren;t really alot of what we would call McDojos teaching it. The more popular it gets, I am sure the more McDojos you will find.