Palm Heel Strike Overrated?

[elbows_and_knees]

I still don't see what it is about the palm heel strike (or at least the way I do it) that makes it so "unusable" in a fight. I just see posts that say "Yeah, but you can't use it that often" etc.

we - or at least I - didn't say palm strikes were unuseable. The topic came up, so I addressed it - but not in reference to palms.

[daedelus4]

Personally, I prefer the palm strike to a punch. Really, the only closed-fist technique I like is the backfist. It's all about knowing where to hit, too. A palm strike done improperly is less powerful than a punch, yes - but a properly executed one means you are hitting with about the same surface area, and about the same force. On the subject of targeting, a palm strike to the ribcage or jaw joint works a lot better than a punch, and is more likely to incapacitate an opponent. Plus, it's easier to not hurt your hand, haha!

In Christ,

Master Phil Stewart

4th Dan Tang Soo Do

I agree wholeheartedly! Not only that, Isnt the palm heel strike more pwoerful than a punch- and I could be mistaken but I could've swore that I read that the bones in your palm are much harder than the cartilage in your knuckles--but as I said I could be wrong.

Edited August 31, 2005 by daedelus4

[daedelus4]

Daedalus,

I'm not trying to offend you, though it is apparent that I did with my prior post. From your response I get the impression that your entire view of what works in a fight is based on NHB tournaments. Unfortunately, while the techniques in those bouts are worth examining, you still have to remember that you are watching a sporting event. I've broken my hand twice in real encounters and have also had a few individuals injure their hands on my skull. Once an entire weapon is put out of commission it changes the course of a fight real quick. As a result I strike primarily with open hands now.

Just think about why properly wrapping and gloving up are important in boxing, muay Thai, and NHB bouts. If you honestly want to know the answer and understand its implications to real combat, then you'll have your answer. But if you want to insist that closed fist punching is the best strike to deliver in a fight in all situations, then be my guest. It's your fist, not mine. But the guys on this post with actual fighting experience know what I say is true.

It seems the line has been drawn and--I have to agree with Hansen.Not only is a palm strike more effective in a real fight (and yes I have used it in real fights, not UFC or some other tourny) than a closed fist but, having your hands up & palm open has the added benefit of making yourself look less like an aggressor in the event the police show up and want to cart your expert butt off to jail.

Not to take anything away from a punch, if you have good striking ability and focus so as not to miss your target, then a punch is a great tool. But, it is easier to cause damage to your opponent when you engage in a fight, especially if in the beginning of that fightyou have the knowledge that your knuckles are not hard enough to withstand the impact--did you do your knuckle pushups today?

Let's try to remeber what part of the body we are talking about here--you ever hear of "Iron Fist" training? Or is it always "Iron Palm?"--ok,I was kidding, that was a rhetorical question but seriosuly, physically the palms of your hands are capable of taking a whole heck of a lot more punishment than your knuckles and as Hansen said, losing a weapon can and often does cause the direction of a fight to change real fast!

Remeber that mind and body post of ovine_king's? after harming your knuckle/hand, whether it be broken, sprained or just swollen will make you less apt to throw it out there as often. I am talking about real life here people--yes, some can go on in spite of the pain but this has ALWAYS been the exception and not the rule!

One pragmatic reason why the maxim: "I train so that I will never have to fight" is true is because real fights, on the street, in a bar, or elsewhere, has the ability of not only teaching one how really fragile the human body is and but also teaches the hard lesson of why you should be training for perfection (Injuries suck! whether you notice them during or after a fight) Further, knowledge of the frailty of humansteaches to be forgiving even in your victory.

Likewise, it is easier for a woman in danger or merely in a fight to cause greater damage via use of the palms as opposed to a closed fist. Granted some women are brawlers and have the capacity to give some vicious blows but for those that don't, and since it is more expedient for them to cause great damage faster, than a guy faced with a similar situation, I highly reccommend it when available. (I am not a woman, but I finished teaching a self-defense clinic tailored to women about a month ago and it has given me another perspective on fighting)

It is just an opinion. Hopefully for those of us reading this post, it is theory that will never have to be tested but, if you find yourself in a fight and you have manged to land a punch--and it hurt--try your palms (Assuming I don't have to mention the elbows, knees, shins, feet, etc.)

Sorry about the length of this post. Oh and BTW, nice handle daedelus! I figured someone else had the same handle but for some reason I could not register with my normal handle

[elbows_and_knees]

Daedalus,

I'm not trying to offend you, though it is apparent that I did with my prior post. From your response I get the impression that your entire view of what works in a fight is based on NHB tournaments. Unfortunately, while the techniques in those bouts are worth examining, you still have to remember that you are watching a sporting event. I've broken my hand twice in real encounters and have also had a few individuals injure their hands on my skull. Once an entire weapon is put out of commission it changes the course of a fight real quick. As a result I strike primarily with open hands now.

Just think about why properly wrapping and gloving up are important in boxing, muay Thai, and NHB bouts. If you honestly want to know the answer and understand its implications to real combat, then you'll have your answer. But if you want to insist that closed fist punching is the best strike to deliver in a fight in all situations, then be my guest. It's your fist, not mine. But the guys on this post with actual fighting experience know what I say is true.

It seems the line has been drawn and--I have to agree with Hansen.Not only is a palm strike more effective in a real fight (and yes I have used it in real fights, not UFC or some other tourny) than a closed fist but, having your hands up & palm open has the added benefit of making yourself look less like an aggressor in the event the police show up and want to cart your expert butt off to jail.

Not to take anything away from a punch, if you have good striking ability and focus so as not to miss your target, then a punch is a great tool. But, it is easier to cause damage to your opponent when you engage in a fight, especially if in the beginning of that fightyou have the knowledge that your knuckles are not hard enough to withstand the impact--did you do your knuckle pushups today? Let's try to remeber what part of the body we are talking about here--you ever hear of "Iron Fist" training? Or is it always "Iron Palm?"--ok,I was kidding, that was a rhetorical question

Actually, yes, there is a such thing a iron fist training. Iron palm is more popularized because many chinese styles tend to emphasize palm strikes. Okinawan and japanese styles like the fist - how often do you palm a makiwara?

The palm isn't necessarily the best for striking in the street - there is no such thing. A fist to the stomach will do more damage than a palm to the stomach. a palm to the skull is safer than a fist to the skull - they both have their advantages. That said, I have never broken my hand in a fight.

As for the use of gloves, they have a couple of purposes. good wrapping protects the small bones on the back of the hand, and when wrapped professionally, the knuckles as well. They also protect the wrist. The gloves are for the benefit of the person getting hit - the surface area is wider than the smaller knuckle, so less extensive damage is done, and a KO is harder score, although still very possible.

[Kajukenbopr]

I acutally find that a palm strike to the side of the face allows for better control of the opponent after being struck...

[White Warlock]

The palm isn't necessarily the best for striking in the street - there is no such thing. A fist to the stomach will do more damage than a palm to the stomach. a palm to the skull is safer than a fist to the skull - they both have their advantages.

Hard/Soft ... Soft/Hard

That said, I have never broken my hand in a fight.

I was recently diagnosed with a broken metacarpal (verification pending, stupid insurance). It was caused by me 'catching' an incoming fist. So, if we wanted to, we could say that a fist is mightier than a palm, in a head-to-head confrontation. Or, we could say, "man, that was a dumb thing to do."

As for the use of gloves, they have a couple of purposes. good wrapping protects the small bones on the back of the hand, and when wrapped professionally, the knuckles as well. They also protect the wrist. The gloves are for the benefit of the person getting hit - the surface area is wider than the smaller knuckle, so less extensive damage is done, and a KO is harder score, although still very possible.

Because of the padding gloves provide, punches to hard surfaces (such as the skull) can be performed at higher velocities with less concern over damage to self. Thus, more potential for concussive damage. I.e., one is 'more' likely to cause a k.o. with gloves on than without.

[Traditional-Fist]

Actually, yes, there is a such thing a iron fist training. Iron palm is more popularized because many chinese styles tend to emphasize palm strikes.

....and many chinese martial artists, who use both their palms and fists, regard palm strikes as more powerful than fist strikes, mainly due to the "vibration" effects of such strikes.

Okinawan and japanese styles like the fist - how often do you palm a makiwara?

Traditional Okinawan karate styles such as Goju-Ryu, do use palm strikes on the makiwara. They also use other, non knuckle parts of the hands as well, in makiwara training.

A fist to the stomach will do more damage than a palm to the stomach.

....a palm to the chest can do more damage than a fist, if one has mastered the palm technique that is.

a palm to the skull is safer than a fist to the skull - they both have their advantages.

Agreed

Conclusion: master both palm and fist techniques.

[unknownstyle]

just like the one guy said a palm can take a lot more force than your knuckles, when you first start to break cement you use your palm generally not the knuckles, because your knuckle take a long time to condition to the point that you can put excessive force on them and still have use of your hand the next day