Palm Heel Strike Overrated?

[Muaythaiboxer]

IMHO the palm strike is the best hand technique for SD but for ring fights its best to stick with the good old punch.

[Hansen]

P.S. The palm strike is HIGHLY overrated because any situation that allows for a palm strike would be better served with a liver shot with the fist or a punch to the jaw.

I disagree. Even though a closed fist strike is powerful, if you don't finish your opponent with that single shot, with every punch you throw you increasingly jeopardize your own hand. If you are using NHB tournaments as a gauge of what works in a real fight you are forgetting that all sporting events require the use of wrist wraps and/or gloves. Wrapping and gloving protect the striker from injuring his own hands. During the early UFCs and the old bare knuckle boxing matches of the 19th century, broken hands and wrists were very common when closed fist strikes were thrown. If this happens out on the street, you're screwed. You won't be able to punch, palm strike, or grab someone with any power or strength. You've basically lost an entire weapon. As just one recent example, look what happened to Keith Hackney in an early UFC. Sure, he won but only because the sumo wrestler he was up against was more clueless about fighting than he was. And he was forced to bow out of the rest of the tournament. On the other hand, an experienced brawler like Tank Abbott walked in with fingered gloves from day one. He knew better.

While I think closed fist strikes are excellent tools in one's arsenal, it is just that - a tool. A palm strike is the same, but it does have the advantage of decreasing the risk of injury to one's own hand and can be delivered to all the same targets as the fist.

[Daedalus]

If you are using NHB tournaments as a gauge of what works in a real fight...

So what do you use to gauge what works in a real fight? Your own thought experiments? Theories? Training sessions in your Dojo? I've very interested to know what you base your knowledge of real fighing on. As far as I am concerned if I ever got into a street fight I would wish for some kung fu master who uses palm strikes instead of someone who has boxing experience. Anyway I'm dieing to know where your knowledge of real fights comes from?

I'm still waiting btw...

Edited July 30, 2005 by Daedalus

[White Warlock]

I agree with Hansen. Sorry Daedalus.

[Hansen]

Daedalus,

I'm not trying to offend you, though it is apparent that I did with my prior post. From your response I get the impression that your entire view of what works in a fight is based on NHB tournaments. Unfortunately, while the techniques in those bouts are worth examining, you still have to remember that you are watching a sporting event. I've broken my hand twice in real encounters and have also had a few individuals injure their hands on my skull. Once an entire weapon is put out of commission it changes the course of a fight real quick. As a result I strike primarily with open hands now.

Just think about why properly wrapping and gloving up are important in boxing, muay Thai, and NHB bouts. If you honestly want to know the answer and understand its implications to real combat, then you'll have your answer. But if you want to insist that closed fist punching is the best strike to deliver in a fight in all situations, then be my guest. It's your fist, not mine. But the guys on this post with actual fighting experience know what I say is true.

[Kajukenbopr]

it is a very effective strike- dont u wonder why it has been used for so long,this strike?

[elbows_and_knees]

it is a very effective strike- dont u wonder why it has been used for so long,this strike?

I've always hated it when people try to make that argument... the butterfly kick has been around too - how effective is it? The tornado kick is still around. People still teach various double punches... Longevity is not a means of proving effectiveness. It only says that people wanted to keep these techniques around.

[elbows_and_knees]

Daedalus,

I'm not trying to offend you, though it is apparent that I did with my prior post. From your response I get the impression that your entire view of what works in a fight is based on NHB tournaments. Unfortunately, while the techniques in those bouts are worth examining, you still have to remember that you are watching a sporting event. I've broken my hand twice in real encounters and have also had a few individuals injure their hands on my skull. Once an entire weapon is put out of commission it changes the course of a fight real quick. As a result I strike primarily with open hands now.

Just think about why properly wrapping and gloving up are important in boxing, muay Thai, and NHB bouts. If you honestly want to know the answer and understand its implications to real combat, then you'll have your answer. But if you want to insist that closed fist punching is the best strike to deliver in a fight in all situations, then be my guest. It's your fist, not mine. But the guys on this post with actual fighting experience know what I say is true.

I currently have a second job as a bouncer in a popular downtown club. previously, I've worked security for other companies. I've never seen and serious hand injuries during a fight. That said, I know that they occur, but it's like people automatically assume that if you punch a hard object your hand will break, and that is not the case. I do agree with the old maxim I posted earlier - hard to soft and soft to hard - but hard to hard guys are not guaranteed a hand break by any means.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Does anyone have any thoughts on what I posted earlier about the difference between using it like a "palm heel thrust" and the way I described it? I was curious to see if it made any sense to anybody.

[Skeptic 2004]

What you said makes perfect sense, but I would argue that your specific application of the palm heel with the "whip action" would be more of a surface impact against a hard target like the chest rather than penetration. The level of penetration you would achieve would depend on your "kime" (which to a certain extent, contrary to Arakaki, I believe Shorin-Ryu possesses), and the relaxation required for the whip action (if you're relaxed for the ENTIRE blow as opposed to either the instant before or at least on contact) doesn't really allow for much - if any - kime. Not to say that surface impact power is bad (it still freakin' hurts, and against something like the jaw, you'll have lots of reverberation in the head).

Penetration through a hard target like the chest with the palm heel is still possible, but it is entirely dependent on the timing and placement of your weight transfer and kime. Consider the palm heel strikes in Maezato no Tekko. We practice what is basically a palm heel thrust by timing the blow to correspond with a drop in our hara (Arakaki's use of ICOG though Nakata would never admit it), and kime. Nakata demonstrated the blow on me to the class sans tekko so I could get a feel for what he was saying; he thrust his hand maybe an inch, but timed with his drop in hara and his kime made it feel like his hand hand gone through my chest and stopped my heart. It was kinda like Bruce Lee's "one-inch power punch" with an open hand I guess...