Kenpo Karate- is it you?

[wingedsoldier]

couldn't have said it better myself.

[Sauzin]

Thanks for the reply scottnshelly. I appreciate that and I understand you've been doing this a long time. Beyond being a well worded and strong opinion, your post also provides the opportunity to really flesh out what I was trying to say. Please allow me to use your examples to better state what I was referring to...

There is no one single aspect that separates Kenpo from any other art; however, this can be said about most arts.

I strongly disagree. As I said. True karate or karate-do is Okinawan. It's a term that originated in Okinawa and was put to use by specific Okinawan styles. Yes in America there are now styles that are not Okinawan using the term Karate, but if you pressure them they will reveal their true base style. Thus true karate is easily distinguished from the rest. The same is true of Judo as their organization and unique training distinguishes them very well. The same is true of both Aikido and Jujitsu. If I said tell me what makes Aikido what it is they would reference their founder and their common philosophies. This is why it is beneficial for Aikidoka to speak of Aikido. When they do, they know what commonalities they can reference.

Really in language there would be no point in having style names and references if there was no distinction. Why have a karate forum if the term "Karate" and "General Martial Arts" was the same. You can even look at the description of this forum on the main page for several good differentiators of karate.

Kenpo, as I understand it, is a very open-minded art, much like Jeet Kune Do. I would say that there are some differences that most people would be able to notice if they saw.

Most Kenpoka that I’ve seen have a lot in common: striking vital points, using open handed techniques often, low kicks, joint locks, circular and linear attacks and weapon defenses. I know that most styles include these same aspects and this is not all of Kenpo, but these are the differences that I have noticed that separate Kenpo from other styles.

It seems you understand the problem with these differentiators. Indeed low kicks, open handed techniques, joint locks, and circular and linear attacks describes 90% of all martial arts. This includes most Chinese disciplines along with all karate and much of Aikido. In fact even Korean arts could be described this way.

If you compared two Kenpo practitioners of different styles you would be able to find differences in their technique, history and philosophy. If you compared two Tae Kwon Do practitioners of different styles the same would be true. If you compared a Tae Kwon Do practitioner against a Kenpo practitioner the differences would be much greater and the similarities would be much less significant.

So, although there are differences in the roots, techniques and philosophies of each sub style of Kenpo, in the greater scheme of things they are basically the same style family.

Again I strongly disagree. All Tae Kwon Do came originated from Korea. They all practice the same forms. They all spar with the same rules. Yes there are differences in technique and teachers but there are very strong system wide commonalities. This is not true of Kenpo however. Okinawan Kenpo is more similar to Tang Soo Do then it is similar to American Kenpo. Likewise American Kenpo is more similar to JeetKwonDo then to Shoulin Kenpo. Take any Kenpo and I could find 5 non-Kenpo styles that are more similar then any other Kenpo that you might compare them to. Quite simply there is no uniquely or remotely common basis. There is no distinction that makes Kenpo what it is. Kenpo is just a name.

Besides, we only have names for styles for classification purposes; otherwise we’d all just be Martial Artists. If that’s the main purpose of having a name for the style, then it doesn’t make much sense to try to over-complicate the classification and create a new style for each little difference.

While I do agree with you there is two sides to that coin. I have no problem with making a broad Okinawan Kenpo distinction. Within Okinawan Kenpo there is Oyata's Kenpo there is Shinjitsukan Kenpo, there is Ryukyu Hon Kenpo and yes there is no point in breaking it down that far. But if you don't make the distinction of at least Okinawan Kenpo then you loose the meaning entirely. Because American Kenpo has no barring on Okinawan Kenpo at all. And if all you said was "Kenpo" how would you know what in the world was being referred to?

For example if you said, "Kenpo is very pressure point oriented." it would be true if you speak of Ryukyu kenpo. Not true at all if you speak of Okinawan Kenpo. Most American Kenpo wouldn't know the gall bladder meridian from the tripplewarmer meridian if it was painted in glow in the dark ink. Their style doesn't focus on that kind of stuff. How about asking about Kenpo's Naihachi Shodan? Wait a sec, how many of you Kenpo guys have any idea what that is? What if I asked what the opening of that form means and I wanted the Kenpo interpetation? Is there an answer to this question? No because Kenpo offers no distiction. In fact you can ask any question in the terms "Does kenpo do ? ",there would be no complete answer because there is no commonality. Now if you say "Does Okinawan Kenpo do ?" then there is a definitive answer. This is the point I am trying to make.

[scottnshelly]

Nice rebuttal. You make some very good points that I am unable to argue. The one point that I can dispute, however, is this one:

Again I strongly disagree. All Tae Kwon Do came originated from Korea. They all practice the same forms. They all spar with the same rules. Yes there are differences in technique and teachers but there are very strong system wide commonalities. This is not true of Kenpo however.

I have a Black Belt in Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do and American Tae Kwon Do. They are both Tae Kwon Do, both originating in Korea, but with very different forms. In Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do, we learned Pal-gye’s and Tae-guks; in American Tae Kwon Do we learned the Chun-gi patterns. I’ve been to other Tae Kwon Do schools that practiced other forms.

This is a very interesting and informative thread.

[Kajukenbopr]

Kenpo came from China and was refined in Japan to the name okinawan kenpo karate, from there it has changed to other styles, both the root from china and the one that was refined in Japan.

Its not stuff that came together at the same time in different places.....

people took that style to other places and kept changing parts of it to make it more efficient- more in tune with their needs.

[Kajukenbopr]

I wanted to post this again since I cant really take info from that place.

Kenpo's Origin

http://www.ctkenpo.com/historyofkenpo.html

[USCMAAI]

I have studied two forms of Kenpo/Kempo (American/Chinese) for over 20 years, and can tell you without a doubt that they both are effective. I agree with other posts, that it is not the art in itself that makes it effective, but the practioner and the way the art is applied. Today many people go for what ever is popular, and whatever isnt is considered worthless. To that I would reply that I have used my martial arts training in the streets, in hand to hand in the military(South America, and the Middle East), and as a Law Enforcement Officer. The fact that I am here posting right now is all the testiment I need to give to the effectiveness of what I have been taught. I don't feel the need to prove my arts effectiveness to anyone, and if they want to think that way, fine by me. I just hope that they never run into one of us "worthless Kenpo stylist" in a conforntation, they may be in for a real suprise and lesson about underestimating another persons style.

[Sauzin]

Thank you Kajukenbopr, for the link to the one origin. And indeed as the link said, American Kenpo does have a link to James Mitoses Hawaiian Kenpo which comes from Kosho-ryu Kempo. And if you wanted to categorize those Kenpo's together I could understand. I wouldn't suggest categorizing American Kenpo with Kosho-ryu Kempo because of there extreme differences but the arguement could be made that they share a common history.

The statement that Kenpo migrated to or from Okinawa is correct only if you are speaking of Okinawan Kenpo. Kasho-ryu migrated directly from China to mainland Japan and never saw Okinawa to my knowledge. Okinawan Kenpo came from a different part of China, indeed even a different art to Okinawa and then mixed with various karate's through the years to form Okinawan Kenpo. These completely different arts could potentially both be traced to the Shoulin Temples. But this doesn't mean much. Many arts can be. All karate and korean arts and most kung-fu can be too.

Also there is George Dillman's Ryukyu Kenpo wich is a mix of Shotokan, Issinyru, and stuff he picked up "here and there". Dispite the name, Ryukyu Kenpo has absolutely no relation to any of the priory mentioned arts.

[Kajukenbopr]

Sauzin

I dont want you to feel left out. Here is the link to the Okinawa Kenpo Karate Origins Link:

http://iwatanakarate.tripod.com/kenpo-karate-history.htm

[BLueDevil]

Not only have i used kenpo effectivily but all of my instructors have used and demonstrated its effective use, anybody who makes a claim that kenpo is not effective has probably not seen a seasoned practitioner in action, since i am new to the forum i'll make it a point to speak up on kenpo's behalf whenever that comes up