Insight on Double Promotion

[DWx]

But does being the best fighter make you a black belt? If you can't convey what you have learned to anyone else why do you deserve that rank?

I won't pretend that I know anything about Joe Lewis, because I don't, but I do think he brings up my earlier point about needing time to learn all the extra things that come with a blackbelt.

When you're a trained fighter and have learnt from a number of styles its pretty easy to pick things up. Especially if the styles are fairly closely related. I mean like when you're learning movements that you have done something very similar to in the past and the new movements are only slightly different, its fairly easy-ish to learn the new things. Same with things like the reasoning behind why certain moves are done in a certain way. And if you take someone like Joe Lewis, he has more than enough time in the day to dedicate to MA, its what he does. I'm not saying its right he got the blackbelts that quickly, just that it could be done by someone like him.

[ShoriKid]

Kruczek,

I don't want to come off as insulting, but your logic doesn't track. You said a person went from white belt to 4th dan in 4 years, what most consider an average time to 1st dan. And that was fine. Joe Lewis, if I recall correctly training 8hr days while in Okinawa as a Marine, gets a couple of black belts in a year and that is bad?

I don't see the trouble with multiple promotions on a single test as long as two things happen. The person is tested on all of the matial required for all of the grades they are advancing. And, they don't get a break cut because they are covering so much material. In other words, it should be tougher than the average single step promotion.

[armanox]

I think armanox is implying that they meet those requirements too. If I understand him correctly, "Why should anyone be held back to meet a time requirement, if they meet all of the other requirements?"

My thoughts exactly.

[sensei8]

IMO, Double promotion should not be done, i believe someone should go threw all ranks, earn every last belt, every last stripe.

ABSOLUTELY! Anything else is putting the rank before the knowledge base, that's unacceptable, imho.

[Grego]

At my school, we use a blue belt between Orange and green.

Normally, the only people who recieve this blue belt are children, and adult/teens that aren't quite ready for green belt, but more advanced that other orange belts.

(note that my sensei teaches karate for free, so this isn't a ploy to get money out of people)

In that case, many students in our style are "double-promoted" over blue belt. Is this bad? no.

Belts are a reflection of skills. There is no reason not to award a rank to a student that deserves it, unless you're worried about alienating other students.

[bushido_man96]

Belts are a reflection of skills. There is no reason not to award a rank to a student that deserves it, unless you're worried about alienating other students.

I don't think that one should really worry too much about alienating another student, though. I think that an instructor should make the students realize that there own pace is what decides where they are, and not that of others, then that should help them to understand that rank is as individual as they are.

In a perfect world, anyways.

[Grego]

Bushido, I completely agree.

My sensei is not completely worried about alienating students. He's not making money, so he doesn't care to accurately represent a student's rank.

Sensei is worried about be fair, however. He's careful not to have a "favorite son/daughter"

If he did, and that person was double promoted, then I think the other students might actually have a basis for feeling alienated.

[bushido_man96]

Ah, I see your concern there now. I agree, and it can be an issue. Nepotism can rear its ugly head from time to time.

[TheHighlander]

In my organization, there is a time component on dan ranks, but on the kyu levels 10th - 1st), it is based primarily on skill (though at 6th kyu you have to start going to class at least twice a week, otherwise you can test only once a year instead of 2x year)

There are a few spots (9th --> 8th or 8th --> 7th) where the test is almost the same as the level above - same katas, basics, kumite. If a student testing shows a lot more polish to his basics and kata, he could be double promoted (9th --> 7th or 8th --> 6th). It doesn't happen that often, but again because the tests are so similar, these are easy spots for that to happen.

I have not seen so far double promotions at other kyu levels.

Our organization doesn't do it much, but is comfortable with it because of the infrequency of testing. We are getting a lot more training time in between.

[tonydee]

My first TKD school - after it split off from the 400-500 dojang parent body - had about 15 dojang and 500 or 600 students come together for the gradings 4 times a year. There'd be 1 or 2 double-promotions a couple times a year, almost always girls in the 8th to maybe 4rd kyup range. The examiner would typically select aggressive, athletic girls in their late teens, then single one or two of them out to spar guys of the same rank. Spurred on by him, they'd attack like crazy and the guy would block and back-pedal, carefully pulling any attacks so as not to be perceived as a "woman beater" by all the assembled students and families, or the focus on the examiner's disapproval. The girls often ignored attacks anyway, and flung limbs out in the excitement of it all. These girls shot up towards 2nd kyu, then suddenly found their thrashing attacks weren't driving anyone back any more, and - something they'd never had to deal with before - if they charged people without blocking they got hit. I'm not aware of any that didn't quit in confusion.

It was really silly, as they'd never actually been the best students - just the ones the examiner wanted to impress the crowd of parents with. "Hey, look what these girls can do against a man, doesn't that show martial arts make the weak strong". Unfortunately, the examiner's misjudgement was one of many, but I won't get distracted....

I've also seen black belts from generally dissimilar striking arts come in - they'd generally have to start from white belt and grade up, as there are forms/kata/hyung/tul/whatever to learn, and we put a lot of emphasis on standardised form. That made sure they were familiar and comfortable with the blocking and attacking tools used in our school, and reduced the chance they'd do something unexpected that would result in injury to themselves or a partner. Once clearly comfortable, they might get double promoted, but one or two caused a little trouble for a while as they kicked around the yellow and green belts a bit more than was necessary. None were too over-the-top, but at times it could be intimidating or unpleasant for the others. Grading them up faster could be tricky too, as they might not have learned the defensive abilities or cooperative elements required for safe sparring at higher levels (e.g. acknowledging attacks, reasonable limits on contact, limitations on juniors using techniques likely to cause serious injury if misjudged, e.g. kicks towards the knees), and under the extra pressure things might degenerate to brawling.... As an instructor, my own students who've been in either of these categories have all been perfectly fine, but it's requires a person-by-person assessment, and I've enjoyed have people with diverse backgrounds, but in that first school I learnt from and taught for, we didn't go out of our way to get other martial artists into our ranks.

Students from similar arts - connected through our old parent body or perhaps even the ITF - were slotted in at a conservatively equivalent grade based on skill.

Returning students would typically wear an old belt but, as they recovered their skills, be told informally by the instructor to start wearing more and more senior belts until they were back at their graded rank. This might happen over the course of a month, or take the best part of a year.

I did things the slow way, and I'm glad. What people forget is that a few months here and there doesn't mean anything in the context of a lifetime of martial study. Let the students learn patience, it won't stop them studying hard. There's no such thing as too much time spent on the basics. Students who get bored practicing them are exactly the ones who aren't ready to be double graded anyway, because that simply endorses an expectation of a roller coaster ride. Such rides come to unexpected stops. It doesn't do the students any favours. Especially when they're still relatively new to things - those junior grades it's most tempting to grade people thorugh - it's good to get them used to being more patient.

Saying all this, I am talking about a school where the minimum student age was 12, and most were 15+, with a curriculum reasonably ambitious for the general class. If there are lots of young kids that require an easy-going general pace, then there may be more reason to differentiate the over-achievers, though if money, time and student numbers allow, separate childrens classes are a good thing in my opinion.

I got my "teenage" blackbelt having attended and passed every grading along the way, which took something like 26 months. The same day, the two other applicants had been training for 6 and 8 years - more typical - though they'd started younger which means it's hard to progress at the same pace, and I'd been a bit obsessive about my training.

Learning to respect, appreciate, assist and cooperate with less-technically-skilled (or less obsessed) people at your rank is also part of becoming a senior student (not just in the black-belt or "standing in the prestige spots in the class lineup" sense - some people max out at blue belt or whatever for purely physical reasons - but in the sense that the instructor knows you're part of the team, someone he or she trusts to be enriching the school in all ways). Slower promotions mean more time at a shared grade, and stronger bonds horizontally through the school. For a younger person focused on their own studies, having a bit more time to soak up the environment and appreciate such things, and act on that appreciation, is as excellent developmental opportunity.

Cheers,

Tony