Ki: I have a theory

[shogeri]

Meditation <> to ponder

Meditation = to attempt a sleep state, a state of homeostasis or balance

Look up the human body's functions while sleeping and you will find remarkable similarities to the effects of Qigong and Taijiquan.

[ovine king]

"matter is simply energy vibrating at frequences that manifest form shape and mass.. within that model, consciousness, properly disciplined, can manipulate the basic energy however it chooses..." taichibob - kungfumagazine forum

Rather than trying to make qi complex, or over simplify, it's best to just accept that it exists, and that it has little or nothing to do with magic, mysticism, or spiritualism...

so are you in agreement with that quote or are you just posting it to give another persepctive?

[shogeri]

I am in agreement to it, and was posting in order to advance some of my own thoughts on this thread.

[ovine king]

..well, I ask because I don't want to seem to be mean but that quote doesn't actually work by which I mean that what it says, is impossible.

yes, matter is energy vibrating at a certain frequency; incredibly over simplified and not taking into account other things that come up when you look at mater/energy at that level but true to an extent.

The problem is what the subsequent remark is claiming, specifically that you can train yourself to manipulate that matter/energy. What is the reasoning that you can train yourself to do this? And what matter are you affecting the change? The matter that surrounds you? The that isn't energy as described in the traditional chi model. Are you affecting your own matter/energy? Then doesn't that mean that as you increas your energy, you decrease your mass? Maniplute the basic energy? That basic energy being matter? Or the energy that becomes matter as it vibrates which again, is your own matter. What he is claiming in that statement, is that it is possible to train yourself to affect base particles. Now here lies the biggest problem. Affect base particles is something taht can be measured/observed relatively easily. So where are the people who have trained to do this?

If you can train to manipulate energy/matter on this level, you are literally talking about being to manipulate matter. We're not talking death touch here, we're talking changing lead into gold type manipulations.

In brief, the subsequent claim is based on a not very good understanding/description of the matter/energy model.

[shogeri]

What this is implying to me is that qi is a biophysical substance that supersedes matter, that is, it is on the verge of becoming matter in a different form.

Qi does not necessarily follow the E=mc2 paradigm down to a 'T'.

We use the model as guide, a tool. That's it. It's not absolute, but it does provide us with a starting point.

The science behind the study of the Human Electro-magnetic {energy}field is rather new.

We are still learning about our biolelectricity every day. So who knows what tomorrow will bring.

I know that we are composed of major and minor (subtle) energy fields.

There are many states of qi each relating to a given function or purpose:

1. Impulsing--the growth and development of the body,

2. Warming--the maintaining of appropriate body heat,

3. Defending--against stresses and pathogens,

4. Controlling--the Blood and Body fluids,

5. Transforming--metabolizing Qi, Blood and Body fluids

These are five common understandings of the qi model.

Our bodies have natural functions.

During the sleep process, our brain does particular functions during the resting process. These are closely tied to the five processes I mention above.

Thus on a subconscious level, our body already knows how to bring itself to a state of homoestasis. Rather, sleep seeks to balance of our energy, the functions in our body, and the mental processes of our mind.

We study qi, and cultivate it in order to understand our body on a different level, one that places us in a constant state of healing and or balance.

Does this mean we are manipulating it as one would when one attempts to turn lead into gold.

No.

We are guiding (yi leads qi)natural processes. Not creating new ones.

If it was natural to turn lead into gold, in all likelihood we would have done so by now, by reproducing what we find naturally occuring in the universe, or on our earth.

We are carbon based, along with water and oxygen. These are primary physical energy (chemical, bio-chemical) forms. We also have the energy we consume (food and air), and put off as waste, etc.

In Traditional Chinese Medicine, we use the term qi (energy) to relate to the bio-energy (function) of the organ.

However, it does necessarily follow the e=mc2 model: neither is it energy like fuel.

Jing or essence, marks our potential for growth. Jing produces qi.

Essential Qi or jingqi, is stored in the kidneys.

When we are healthy we have excess qi or Shi. This means are healthy, and balanced.

We move qi by understanding it, and cultivating it. This processes of moving it is called daoqi. When we 'feel; or experience this, it's called deqi. The more we study qi, or cultivate it, or understand it within ourselves the more we are able to have the experience of 'deqi'...

In other words, it's best to think of qi as an ambiguous, dynamic, multi-faceted quality that precedes many of the processes within our body.

In western science it seems that energy comes from matter, whereas with eastern science, energy comes first. Reductionism doesn't necessarily follow the qi model or the understanding of qi as most know it to be, since qi cannot be reduced down to any type of particle.

Though qi doesn't follow the model of e=mc2, certainly it some levels one could say that qi=mc+conscious awareness and or understanding.

That is, without an intuitive approach, we will fall short of understanding qi, its functions and or processes.

Just throwing out some extra thoughts...

[ovine king]

so if the chi model isn't described by the 'usual' physics models, why use it as a means to give a possible explanation of chi?

if chi doesn't follow stand physics rules, why does a physics related statement give room for chi's existance?

If i was to choose between a reason based loosely on what is essentially bad physics and the 'traditional' chinese explanation of chi (being that it "just is"), i'd much prefer the ambiguous chinese way of thinking.

I do not like these ways of supporting an argument, by which i mean taking a known physical/mathematical process and taking it as the reason for something to be true or false, mainly because the resulting argument is usually just another example of bad maths/physics.

Relating to th subject of chi; in the chinese arts, there is only one chi. What you do with it is what varies but there is ultimately only one chi. Incidentally, I was addressing that quote of yours directly. What you did in your post, was to change the topic. According to the quote, you can train to affect matter/energy because they are interchangable in physics models. I am simply stating that this is false.

In fact, I think that trying to look for holes where chi can be squeezed into, is often the wrong way to look at things. The two clearly don't mix so why use one to explain the other?

Yea the body maintains itself but how does this give rise to an explanation and proof of chi? Sure the body knows that it needs food, rest sleep etc etc. Only problem is that the classical ideas of chi claim that cultivating chi can lead to virtually eternal life without need for sustanance, something that surprisingly is never brought up in any discussion where one tries to give a scientific explanation of chi.

If the body's act of maitaining its internal balance, observed as a healthy balance, then does that mean that eating citrus fruits, and ingesting vitamin c, a known factor in improving the body's immune system, is a way to cultivate chi?

Before this discussion gets taken out of context, it isn't what you are saying that I am in disagreement with as I am one who believes that what chi is needs to be understood on one level or another. The thing I don't agree with, is the means taht some people use to attampt to give credance to their argument by way of association

i.e physics is a semi-known subject, therefore i will use physics to give an explanation of chi and thus my argument will have more substance.

I also have a thing against all those who claim that x and y is possible yet show no evidence that it has actually occured in previous examples. In the case of the quote you gave, all that was said was that the model that they looked at, left room for the POSSIBLITY that the base form of the energy can be manipulated by training and then leaving that possiblity as being a fact.

[shogeri]

I agree that the western mindset should not try to explain qi using the methods it does.

E=MC2 does make for a poor model. But again even 2=mc2 is just a theory, and yet it's an accepted way of looking at things.

I say that it's a theory, since we cannot go back into time, nor can we go to the outreaches of the universe, and so on attempting to test such theory.

To me, qi is broken down into functions, and yet the various forms of it collectively come together to be known as just 'qi'...

The quote I used earlier was to perhaps bring out the point that qi (energy) and matter are somewhat related. I wouldn't want to go any further than that.

To me there is a link between our conscious (and or subconscience mind), and that of the processes (qi movement, function, cultivation, and manipulation) in our body.

I believe the 'Sleep Model' is one of the better ways in which we can at least understand the end result, along with some of the various meridian theories involving qi, etc.

[markusan]

Is it valid to consider qi as a process rather than an "energy"?

[Sam]

just as a side point... i havent posted here for ages as i got sidetracked with various other things... but this has been a sort of pet topic of mine to date, qi and the like...

To clarify something... E=mc^2... is actually only the first part of the whole equation, but is used to describe how in an inertial frame of reference with no kinetic energy or momentum, that something may begin to move with no external forces acting upon it.... thats really all its for, nothing special there really...

Secondly, the idea that the brain can somehow manipulate the harmonics of matter honestly doesnt make sense to me... im not trying to say anyone is wrong here, but still let me just work this through out loud :

If matter is as has been stated the energy vibrating at a certain frequency (and yes in some circumstances this is a MODEL that can be used... see Particle / Wave Duality of Matter for more info if ud like), and you assume that our brain is (as it is matter) made of these vibrating energy "strings", what would give rise to the assumption that these strings manipulation and interaction with each other are affected in anyway by the human thought processes, conscious or subconcious? It just doesnt seem to follow logic.... why would it be possible? what is the grounding for it?

In any case, im not denying the existance of qi/chi/whatever, just asking those who believe to explain what they see as the truth... thanks in advance for your replies.

[shogeri]

Consider Qi to not just be 'energy', rather consider it to be a 'sum of energy processes' that generally move with the flow of blood, and various other bodily fluids or chemical processes.

This is done under the auspicious guidance of neural control compounded with a higher level of sensory perception or awareness.

Humans at the base level are composed of:

Atoms - Bonding - Water - Solutions - Acidity - Organic molecules - Carbohydrates - Lipids - Proteins - Nucleic Acids -- and so on.

From there we get into the various processes of work that sustains us, such as;

Osmosis - Facilitated Diffusion - Active Transport Endocytosis - Exocytosis - Epithelial Transport Gland Production - Protein Synthesis - Cell Division and Cell Cycle Enzymes and Chemical Reactions

Metabolic Pathways, which include Glycolysis, and the Krebs cycle.

Carbohydrate Synthesis Fat Metabolism

Fat Catabolism - Protein and Amino Acid Synthesis

The above processes are all related to qi. That is the metabolic absorption, use, transfer, and discard of energy based compounds.

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Homeostatic Control Systems include our reflex to stimuli, chemical messenging, and local homeostatic responses.

Qi is also related to this process as well, which includes our Neural Control Mechanisms, Neurotransmitters and Neuromodulators.

The central nervous system is heart of Traditional Chinese Medicine in regards to regulating the qi process.

The CNS includes; the Spinal Cord, and the Brain (especially the brainstem). We know that the Peripheral Nervous System is where the signals are carried out to the 31 pairs of spinal nerves.

The Somatic Nervous System is related to the control of the skeletal muscular system. In short, Motor functions.

The relationship of Qi with our ability to cultivate it, or become more aware and use it, rests within our understanding of the Autonomic nervous system (ANS).

The ANS innervates smooth and cardiac muscles.

Parallel chains, each with two neurons, connect the CNS and effector cells.

The synapse between these two neurons is called the autonomic ganglion, which are nerve fibers between the CNS.

The ANS is then divided further into sympathetic (fight or flight) and parasympathetic (rest and relax) components.

Sympathetic ganglia lie close to the spinal cord while parasympathetic ganglia lie close to the organs.

The sympathetic system is arranged to act as a single unit while parasympathetic system is arranged such that the parts can act independently.

Sympathetic system is involved in responses to stress.

Many organs and glands receive dual innervation from both sympathetic and parasympathetic fibers.

The two systems generally have opposite effects and work together to regulate a response. Most autonomic responses usually occur without conscious control but this doesn't imply that such has not been known to occur.

At the lower level of exercise our bodies need the Somatic Nervous System.

However, it is tied to the Peripheral Nervous System, and while we exercise and thereafter, our body then has the information, and the energy in which to do work. Such as releasing or producing hormones, transferring enzymes, increasing blood flow, which carries many things with it, such as glucose, and so on.

That is respond to the movement of our body, of which include the ANS.

Which is all part of the Central Nervous System.

Those practitioners with diabetes have shown a decrease in the symptoms over a long period of time of doing the Taijiquan form.

Perhaps this is why the practice of the Taijiquan form has within, the basic understanding of such processes, since it is closely tied to proper body mechanics (certain spinal and muscular movements which are tied into brain stem functions), the CNS, blood flow, and so on.

Acupressure is closely tied the to CNS, and each point is located around a bundle of nerves and fibers. Many of the primary points are located near the brain stem, and along the spine.

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The Sensory Systems

A sensory system is a another part of the nervous system consisting of sensory receptors that receive stimuli from internal and external environment, neural pathways that conduct this information to brain and parts of brain that processes this information.

The information is called sensory information and it may or may not lead to conscious awareness. If it does, it can be called sensation.

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Basically what ties all of this together are the energy processes behind each action.

But is this qi. No. Not exactly. Qi isn't necessarily something that can be reduced into something and then analyzed from a reductionistic or empirical standpoint. Albeit many have tried in the past.

Quite simply, when we say we move qi, we are taking our ability to sense some process or processes in our body, and then using our conscious to guide Qi (the collection of energy processes).

Are we manipulating matter or converting energy?

No.

We are consciously inviting ourselves into the neurological processes that our body is already doing. By cultivating we become both more aware of the movement of qi, and we work toward furthering the balance within our body.

This is all tied closely to our body's natural reflex to fix itself, to attempt to balance what is imbalanced.

The brain reflexively or inherently does this on a particular level of brain activity while we sleep.

It also does it after we get hurt, or when something doesn't function as it should.

As many have noted in the past, Qi activity is closely related to the Central Nervous System.

Qi activity is also closely related to the oxygen supply, digestive process, blood transport of glucose, muscular and skeletal movement, and so on.

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Though I may not have given an answer, hopefully I put something out there that further helps to explain qi, or the movement of qi. Rather, the processes that involve qi.