aikido a grappling art?

[Adonis]

I study bjj and I defiently agree on the point that was made that you don't have to master a move to defend against that move. I don't perform gi chokes well with a resisting apponent but I can defend against them. Same with other attacks, learning to recognize them as they are done to you and knowing how to protect your self is what you need.

You can use MMA competion look at wrestlers in early to mid UFC time frame why did they start doing so well because they recognized BJJ subs and was able to defend against them even though they weren't adept at pulling off the same subs.

Even now you have strikers do some ground defense enough to avoid subs and get back to there feet.

example of that is Dan Henderson he is decent at ground work but isn't on the same level as of detail to set up subs like say Renzo Gracie but in there fight in Pride Fighting Championships 13 in 25March2001. He did well when renzo played guard on him and dan was able to break out and escape Renzo's guard and defend any attempts for subs to be able to know renzo out with a sprawl uper cut combo when Renzo tried to shoot in on Dan.

So that example illustrates you don't have to be master of those subs to recognize and defend against them.

[Daedalus]

I'm not trying to say BJJ is the end all of MAs. What I am trying to say is that groundfighting prowess doesn't come from someone showing you a few moves; it takes hours and hours of experience against a live resisting opponent. That is all. I believe this is the only way to truly nullify groundfighting technique.

Example: I used to train in Wado Ryu Karate at the Scottsdale Martial Arts Center. We used to have classes where we would train various armlock, chokes, stand up grappling, and takedowns. We went through all the motions and kept doing this until the we got to the point where we could do them at full speed on our partner. But now after training in an exclusively grappling art my eyes have been opened to thre fact that without training those grappling moves against opponents resisting 100% that I would have extreme difficulty applying them in a real live situation. I sparred with one of my old class-mates who used to dominate me in stand-up matches. I'm 130lbs and he is 185lbs and in very good shape. Well our match started standing but after the first few swings at eachother I quickly moved in and took him down to the ground. He was totally helpless on the ground even though we had trained grappling some in class. The sheer difference in groundfighting experience against a live opponent was what I believe made all the difference once the fight got to the ground.

Since some of you misinterpretted me before I thought I should make my point very clear by summarizing it for you guys.

Summary:Practicing groundfighting techniques without sparring is not enough to save you from even a beginner groundfughter who has practice against opponents that defend with 100% of their strength and technique once the fight hits the ground.

[White Warlock]

Since some of you misinterpretted me before I thought I should make my point very clear by summarizing it for you guys.

Umm, you guys?

Summary:Practicing groundfighting techniques without sparring is not enough to save you from even a beginner groundfughter who has practice against opponents that defend with 100% of their strength and technique once the fight hits the ground.

I suppose i'm a tad frustrated with your habit of posing straw men. I, for one, was not mentioning anything about the study of groundfighting techniques without 'resistance.' In truth, i saw nobody else state such either. I gather you're trying to win an argument, rather than have a discussion. That being the case, i bow out.

[Enviroman]

Since some of you misinterpretted me before I thought I should make my point very clear by summarizing it for you guys.

Umm, you guys?

Summary:Practicing groundfighting techniques without sparring is not enough to save you from even a beginner groundfughter who has practice against opponents that defend with 100% of their strength and technique once the fight hits the ground.

I suppose i'm a tad frustrated with your habit of posing straw men. I, for one, was not mentioning anything about the study of groundfighting techniques without 'resistance.' In truth, i saw nobody else state such either. I gather you're trying to win an argument, rather than have a discussion. That being the case, i bow out.

I, too, concede as I don't have the patience to "fight" a losing "war."

[Goju_boi]

lol,agreed

[MMASanDiego]

but I feel he has the "BJJ is the best and only real MA" attitude. Maybe I'm wrong.

I respectfully disagree. Deadalus is posting what I consider to be the obvious truth after taking years of various martial arts my entire life.

I think its unfair to label him as some kind of BJJ cult member for basically stating the truth. Ive taken TKD, karate, Kung-fu, judo, some aikido and BJJ. Im taking BJJ now.

I guess its just kind of hard to explain in words. You really need to experience it. You could practive takedown defense all day long and think you have it mastered in kata form, but when put up against a real opponent your whole game falls apart.

These grapplers go for takedowns and defend takedowns in 100% effort sparring in every class. Yet they lose the takedown defense about 50% of the time. To think you will be able to defend a takedown against one of these guys who have thousands of hours of experience more than you in takedowns is simply ignorant bliss. In a sense you are a takedown defense white belt and they are takedown black belts. You chances are slim at best.

All I can say is, visit your local BJJ studio. Talk to the instructor, and ask if you can test your takedown ability against, say a blue belt ( a guy with 1-2 years experience). I guarantee you will be in for a rude awakening. Being close minded in the MA world is really a bad idea. You dont want to carry around any delusions like this.

[MMASanDiego]

Oh, and I also agree you do not need to be a master of submission wrestling to be able to defend against submissions. I just think there is a large gap between what some people here think is the minimum required to prevent subs (or takedowns) and what they really need.

For example, a BJJ white belt with 1 year of training cannot prevent submissions from a BJJ blue belt.

So the question I would pose to you is, do you or dont you have over 1 year of day to day submission grappling experience which may be enough to prevent subs from a first year BJJ student?

When you are ready to talk about BJJ purple belts (5-7 years experience) let me know You are going to need a ton of experience to avoid a sub from purple and higher.

[Adonis]

Your wrong on that account. He may not defend every sub attempt from blue belt but he can give him a hard time and make him work a for a sub. Meaning some arm bars, key locks, leg locks, and some chokes he can because decent at defending but get caught in some rear naked chokes done on there own. Thats why you learn combinations more around blue belt stage and you get caught because of the set ups.

I agree and I stated in several post you need resistance. Doesnt have to be 100% all the time? No! You can learn more by doing a move a few reps then have a partner give you medium amount of resistance something for you to deal with and over come and still set up or change your postion or angle, grip structure to make the move work. You learn quick that way with partner feed back. then bump up the resistance after you feel comfortable with that to 100% and still pull it off or some other combination or move set up at that higher level of resitance.

I am just saying don't go 100% all the time for sub. You train a few moves in class with little or no resitance and then go straight into 100% try to sub each other sparring. diffrent postional sparring, diffrent resitance levels, partner feed back, and you can learn and progress faster, thats what works for me and alot of other people I know as well.

On that note some higher rankers go 100% and kick your butt all the time others that are worth a darn go out your level, or sligthly above to make you work and leanr to apply the moves with resitance. I haven't seen a black belt level instructor go 100% all the time with there new students trying to sub them every chance they get, they usually go according to that students level trying to build them up to where they can go all out on them after a few years of training.

I do agree you got to have resistance. I am preachig that on this board since I joined.

I agree its a huge diffrence just going through the motions and then trying to do them on a full resisting partner. Of course they are going to have trouble with applying it. BUt my advice to drill the moves the guy said doing reps and then resistance training was dead on! You don't need to full out spar all the time, it is good to use to gauge where your at, but you use potional sparring, you get better quicker. Go ask your bjj instructor. Alot of them if not all learned more by postional sparrring. Working same move over and over with resistance.

You check out other MMA fighters and Good BJJ'ers they say the same thing. Jean jeac machado says it also. If he has a trouble with postion or move he puts him self in it over and over and works to get out. Same with pulling off a sub he works it, drills it over and over until he makes it work.

I think were saying the same thing but wording it diffrent.

daedalus,

who is your bjj instructor, gustavo dantes, Roland sarria, Jerry Luarita, megaton?

Where you train at?

[MMASanDiego]

Your wrong on that account. He may not defend every sub attempt from blue belt but he can give him a hard time and make him work a for a sub.

My original statement: "For example, a BJJ white belt with 1 year of training cannot prevent submissions from a BJJ blue belt. "

So how am I wrong when you admit it he will still get the sub, but will just have to work a little harder for it?

Thats my point. These guys who practice some takedown/sub defense still have no chance against a BJJ player, especially a higher ranked one.

The gapper is bigger than it seems.

[Adonis]

cuz the way you word it comes off he can get any sub, he has to work for a sub meaning the white belt with 1 year experience can defend a few of his subs.

way you wrote is the blue belt can put a clinic on the 1 year white belt and get any sub he wants. Maybe but I bet white belt defends alot or at least soem of the subs.

depends how the practice. Its about resistance training. All they got to do is bring in a good bjj/grappler and they work on sprawling, take down defense, sub defense and getting back to tehre feet to play striking game. There is quite a few schools who do that. Even though wandereli silva from chute box Pride's number one guy write now. Thats his game, he has a great striking and great take down defense, granted he studies bjj also.

Now I understand if you casually pratice take down defense and sub defense half heartedly just going through the motions with really no resitance. Then yeah it won't pull them off with some one who is experienced at grappling through resitance.