Dragonki1 is back with advice on ki

[Menjo]

Right but that also depends on how fast the energy is moving

[Sam]

ok dense ness of energy is not about whether you can see it...... you can collect a massive amount of energy into a small are and still not see it [matter annihilations]..... and vice versa.

[Condatus]

thankyou sam for saying something in regards to science ..... density can only be calculated when there is a distance between molecules to be calculated ie there requires there to be mass for density to be measured, and mass is the defining line between matter and energy. also just because you collect something together doesn't mean you can see it. how about heat or sound just because you concentrate them to a single point doesn't mean you can see them. you can however see what is affect with the wwobbly vision due to excited air molecules bouncing off eachother and the things that are burned.

[Enviroman]

Sam is referring to the EMS (electromagnetic spectrum), I think. Density (mass per volume) has nothing to do with visibility. The water vapor example: Water vapor is invisible to the naked eye in its vapor (gaseous) state. The "concentration" of vapor you spoke of is not a concentration but a transformation from an invisible gaseous state to a visible liquid state. When you see steam coming off of a kettle you're seeing suspended water droplets that have witnessed condensation.

Bioelectricity exists in the body. Our nerves essentially work off of electrical currents that run through the body. It's how our cells signal each other (pain, for example). I think it folly to believe that we can harness this sort of bioelectrcity and "go dragonballz" as someone said.

[Condatus]

i think when people refer to bioelectricity.... it has been used so loosely that they believe it to be more than it reallyis. it is true that our nerves revolve around the movements of electrons but it is not the name movement as in the movement they go through as in a wire. organic chemicals behave differently. a wire is composed of a single element or alloy thus preventing them from reacting with anything. the way our nerves work is a long line of chemical reactions that "transport" the electron to the area of the brain the nerve is attached to. also the contraction of a muscle is not governed by electricity alone. the shock allows for a chemical reaction to occur and offset the equilibrium ... and in order to restabilize the equilibrum the muscle cell expands to balance the amount of the products of the reaction inside and outside the cell. i am sorry if all this sounds too technical ... but the point i am trying to make is that one cannot control the movement of electrons or energy outside the concious functions of the body because it is impossible to completely control such precise chemical reactions without severe isolation of what you are working with

[Sam]

wow nice to have some more science based guys on here just out of interest - are you studying / working scientists, or just students?

"energy" itself is not visible.... only its interaction [not reaction] with matter. An example would be where energy provides the "push" for an emission of a particle from an orbit, that also releases a photon.... thereby producing light [althoug unless your talking about a really really obscure reaction this would be completely undetectable by teh naked eye].... so in essence in any wavelength of the em spectrum "energy" itself is not really visible, as it cann interact to emit photons from itself [having no mass]...... hope that helps.... and can anyone who knows about energy / matter conversion not bring it up as a contrary because if you think about the energy levels are compeltely different.

[sdargie]

I just have to say that these discussions are great. The internal arts section is the reason I joined.

From what I understand (so far) about ki is that the example of the water condensing and the electrical charge are the closest examples of ki but not for the reasons they were brought up. Like Sam said, "energy" itself is not visible.... only its interaction [not reaction] with matter." Li*, or the physical manifestation of ki, what we percieve, feel, hear, see around us.

For example; Ki : stress :: Li : ulcer.

This also extends to inanimate objects as manifestations of ki albeit in their raw state. I would say "the ki of that chair" is less acurate than "the ki of that wood."

I relate Morihei Ueshibas credo that ki is love to this by comparing love to connectedness and not "I love my mom." Keeping in mind that everything can be broken down to electrons, neutrons, protons and even smaller quarks (although I don't know much about quarks) helps to dissipate the mysticism of ki and anchor it firmly in the real world. Thinking in terms that everything is made of the same material/energy definetly helps to wrap my mind around the philosophical aspects that, in my opinion, are more important applications of ki than creating Star Wars-esque lightning.

(I don't deny the possibility of using ki like the force, however I doubt the probability of anyone gaining that significant amount of control in one lifetime.)

*I learned about this concept in Reflections on Qi by Gary Khor if anyone wants to check it out.

[jarrettmeyer]

wow nice to have some more science based guys on here just out of interest - are you studying / working scientists, or just students?

Master of Science in Engineering. Physics, math, chemistry... all awesome topics. W00+!

If ki exists (and I'm not saying it doesn't) and if ki can affect the body, mind, ability, or level of awareness (and I'm not saying it can't), then there must be some bioelectrical or biochemical effect on the human body. By either God or nature, that is the way we are designed. And, if this effect takes place, then it should be measurable.

[Condatus]

energy is of course measuable .... but we can only measure it through the effects on matter it has .... ie the expand and contraction of air to measure decibles of sound, the rate at which mercury molecules speed up to measure temperature, also the loss of protons to measure readiation .... i am trying to say that energy can't be measured in the means that was indicated earlier .... as a manifestation

[Condatus]

oh yeah and sam .... i am a student, but i repeatedly practice chemistry as an intern at the local crime lab in my town