For all you kickers...

[Bretty101]

I kinda meant throwing it with the shoulder first. I'd say this is where the originating power comes from then down into your hips and out through your foot. Try standing on one leg and pivoting around just using your foot, feels like your knees gonna explode!

 

(watch anyone spar the first part of their body to move before any technique is there rear shoulder, uh-oh secrets out.)

 

Bretty

 

 

[spinninggumby]

Well hmm, I'm not sure, perhaps the initial rotation of the shoulders may be used to allow easier movement of the hips, but I would still somehow think that most of the power comes from down there (hips and waist). The twisting of the shoulders may be a setup or a catalyst/prelude movement to the kick, but I would still feel that the primary power source (maybe it's different from 'original' source) is around your middle. If I were to choose between excellent shoulder torque/strength and excellent hip and waist strength/torque for kicking techniques, I probably would choose the hip and waist. One of the main reasons would be b/c logically the waist and hips are more centered towards the middle of your body and therefore have a bigger overall effect on your legs as well as torso.

 

But, you make a good point, and it's something to think about. However we can both agree that loose shoulders and a loose open hip and waist are incompromisable.

[Karateka]

I do lean back a little, but that is because of my physiology. I try to remain up right so that I can recover quickly and attack again if I have to.

 

 

[kicker]

I lean back and tend to or try to get more power on my kick and then quickly return to my stance. But i might sometimes lean forward and try to make more of a combo since i am closer to my oppoinment and my kick isn't really affective as much so i throw in some punches ...ect

 

 

[Bretty101]

Totally agree power in the kick is stored in the hips, thats you centre of gravity blah blah blah anyway.

 

Fought some guy last night who was some freestyle TKD bloke. He leans way back on all his kicks and i couldn't do any thing with him. Hmm very interesting tho.

 

Will perservere and look for weakness

 

Bretty

[Cory Reynolds]

On 2002-03-05 13:50, spinninggumby wrote:

 

Usually IMHO you should try to lean back as little as possible and try to keep your torso as straight as you can with your hands guarded. Leaning back compromises your balance and power and leaves you vulnerable. When you lean back it also takes longer to recover from a kick so it is harder to immediately throw more techniques or commit to further actions. Also, leaning back is usually done in order to make up for lack of flexibility. If higher kicks is what you want, leaning back may just be a way of cheating yourself. You should just do more dynamic stretching so that you will not need to lean to achieve greater height. Obviously there is no way you can do many high kicks without leaning your torso back somewhat, but for the most part I wouldn't say beyond 45 degrees.

 

On a side note, the side kick might be a different story since it is virtually impossible to throw a super high side kick (close to vertical or vertical) without leaning your torso back significantly (over 45 degrees).

 

My opinion almost exactly matches Spinning's statement. Except for the last part about the side kick. IMHO, when your round kick is completely extended, your hips should be turned over into the same position as when doing a side kick. Otherwise you're not really doing a round kick, you're doing something inbetween an round kick and a front kick which is an easy bad habit to get into. This causes a loss of power in both your hip rotation, and your line of fire.

[Cory Reynolds]

On 2002-03-06 03:07, Bretty101 wrote:

 

I kinda meant throwing it with the shoulder first. I'd say this is where the originating power comes from then down into your hips and out through your foot. Try standing on one leg and pivoting around just using your foot, feels like your knees gonna explode!

 

(watch anyone spar the first part of their body to move before any technique is there rear shoulder, uh-oh secrets out.)

 

Thai round kicks are generally done this way. While they may be more powerful, they are slower and telegraph the technique (turning the shoulders, etc) way too much. My rear leg round kick begins by coming straight up through the middle like a rear leg front kick. Then at the very last moment, when my knee is pointed at my target, I explode with my hips to turn my hips and my leg over to connect with the kick. My shoulders have little to nothing to do with the kick, so they don't telegraph my actions.

 

 

[spinninggumby]

Hey Cory

 

I know exactly what you mean and I agree with you. The only thing is that my WTF instructor always teaches the turn kick as the hybrid sparring version (i.e. turning hip over 45 degrees instead of 90 and snapping it diagonally upwards). I practice the way you have described as well. This was the method that was taught in my traditional kwoon before I took up tkd. In fact, when your hips are turned over like a side kick (i.e. full 90 degrees), you get maximum potential height with the turn/round kick. However, this also means that you have to lean more as opposed to the previous version. For some that is a very acceptable sacrifice.

 

_________________

 

"Being able to move in and out of styles, movements, and rhythms with ease is the highest skill." - Donnie Yen

 

"If you have to resort to violence, you've already lost" - Rising Sun

 

"The finest steel emerges from the hottest furnace" - a smart guy

 

[ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-07 09:44 ]

[Bretty101]

On 2002-03-07 07:48, Cory Reynolds wrote:

 

...My rear leg round kick begins by coming straight up through the middle like a rear leg front kick. Then at the very last moment, when my knee is pointed at my target, I explode with my hips to turn my hips and my leg over to connect with the kick...

 

I love those kicks kinda combine the power of a rear leg kick with the speed of a lead leg kick, cool!! and an excellent variation.

 

But being an ITF fighter i don't like rear kicks/turning my body square on coz it give the opponent a bigger scoring zone, points fighter you see

My shoulders have little to nothing to do with the kick, so they don't telegraph my actions...

 

I disagree shoulders telegraph everything you can't ...do anything without moving your shoulders first.

 

I love what was said above about not confining yourself to a certain style i believe tho a round kick is a round kick it can be through a hundred different ways from a hundred different angles, never throw the same kick twice

 

Bretty

 

me

 

 

[YODA]

"I disagree shoulders telegraph everything - you can't ...do anything without moving your shoulders first."

 

-- Nope, not so, neagative, now way Jose, just ain't so

 

Non telegraphic action is a fumdemental part of JKD - ever head of the hammer principle in relation to punching? Get's your punch half way there without moving the shoulders first. Savate guys are VERY good at kicking with NO detectable upper body telegraphing.