A man of real combat

[spinninggumby]

I agree with that!!!

 

:angel:

[Angus]

Good on ya guys... And that was a very good way of putting it chang.

 

Angus

 

 

[three60roundhouse]

Interesting argument. Too bad it is gassing. Anyway, it seems to be getting into a traditional "art" vs. modern "art" war, here...even if it is indirect. I am of the humble opinion that you perform to the absolute edge of your physical abilities - an no further. I am a stretching addict. I know that even though I can kick about 6 inches over my head, I still view doing the splits as a physical milestone. And do you know how I've been helped? Not by having an instructor sit on my back like they did to my instructor (risking stupid injury for a goal I don't even have to meet). I've been helped by reading articles on stretching and going, like angus said - until I feel a burn, but never sharp pain. I think this is my year ...I'm gonna do a split.

 

Anyway, I still don't understand where this post is going! The original post was about A FEW black belts who have had watered-down training. So what? What does that have to do with modern martial artists in general (especially on a forum for people who are very dedicated)? NOTHING!

 

And let's go ask Helio Gracie what he thinks of traditional training methods and arts. I think he would have interesting input.

[YODA]

Intresting discussion....

 

Jigaro Kano

 

Morehei Ueshiba

 

Gichin Funakoshi

 

Masutatsu Oyama

 

Helio Gracie

 

Bruce Lee

 

.... All men who took the "Traditions" they where taught - and changed them.

 

 

[YODA]

......... On the original post by AO -----

 

"I am amased that just because some people dont go and bust peoples heads or enter contests people assume they cant fight.

 

In my experience I have found the ones to be quite humble and amicable people tend to be the most competant. "

 

---- There is a quote that says....

 

Strong men can always afford to be gentle. Only the weak are intent on "giving as good as they get."

 

...Elbert Hubbard

 

 

 

 

[Karateka]

I started out as someone who hated kata, just fighting, whether it be street or competition. I put all my effort into my fighting ability and just passing kata. My fights were less then impressive. On the street, because of my bulk I had an advantage. In competition, I would lose. I asked my Sensei why. He said, just keep practicing your kata. I finally had the intelligence to ask him "why?" He made us do an entire week of kata, and I finally understood. He then asked me, "why?" Kata helps develop power, speed, and balance. It doesn't matter whether the techniques work or not, it matters what happens to your body. You learn hip rotation, use of the abdomen, balance, things that I am sure everyone will agree are necessary for combat. That is what is important, not the gyaku tsuki or the yoko-geri, although they work for me, I find the stuff underneath the skin is what was trained the most.

 

 

[Angus]

THe point of many anti-kata practitioners is that we can learn all of this stuff more effectively by doing things which are actually related to fighting. Many people see kata as a waste of time. I HAVE to do it now if i want to obtain a pretty little black belt, but i take comfort in the knowledge that i already know how to fight.

 

Angus

 

 

[Shaolin]

By way of example - imagine what would happen if Wing Chun was passed down to students with all the forms intact, a couple of drills and punches here and there but missing the basic theories and idioms of Wing Chun and Chi-Sao. All information about the Centerline etc all theories erased. The students would be left in the same predicament that many students find themselves in today - wondering how to fight and how to use their system as it was intended.

 

The students of this New Wing Chun school could practice their forms all day long and I guarantee you they wouldn't have the slightest idea, not only what the movements are, but wouldn't even be able to identify what is a movement. Wing Chun moves are way to small and subtle to be identified through guesswork. Wing Chun forms teach concepts as well as movement and energy. Without a real master who actually knows how to teach and how the system works the students would not be learning Wing Chun. Instead they would probably go on to use Western Boxing and Karate moves and make up their own Wing Chun and use that to fight, all the while they would continue to do their forms, and call their art Wing Chun, but clueless to the fact that the forms they worked contradicted everything else they trained. In the end it's almost funny - training forms that totally contradict the adopted fighting philosophy. People would start to say things like, “Who needs forms?” “What do they have to do with combat?” “Those old monks didn’t know @#$#” “All I need is a heavy bag…” Sound familiar? It's happening at a Dojo near you!

 

In Wing Chun the forms are important because they teach and reinforce the concepts that make the system work. If the Wing Chun student did not practice forms then his Chi-Sao would take longer to develop. He would not learn how to use his horse. As a result he would have no footwork, he would have trouble positioning his hands and in general his kung-fu would be as the master's say 'less successful' meaning not so hot. When Bruce studied Wing Chun he practiced the forms diligently and so added to his success in that system. Forms are useless when one has no idea what they are supposed to be learning. To me when one trains 'Karate' drills and forms which are designed to teach one how to fight using Karate, and then goes and 'spars' using a jumping around boxing style of fighting, virtually devoid of any Karate, now IMO that makes the forms useless or real close.

 

The forms in Wing Chun are critical for proper transmission of the system and development of students. Wing Chun forms are not really designed to simulate combat, nor are students taught to imagine opponents attacking them. Instead, the forms are designed to reinforce the key concepts of the system such as Centerline theory, hand replacement, hand unity, facing etc. Each form contains a library of movements from the system and each form represents a different idea in the system. It is said the second form's concepts counter the first's, the third form counters the second and that the first form counters the third. Our forms also train the student how to move certain parts of the body, how the hips should be positioned, how to move their horse using proper foot-work, as well as, how to unite the hands and the feet and also how to disconnect the hands and the feet and that both are used and correct. The forms are responsible for building the student's base - all other training rests on this base. Without it students would never stop making mistakes and never have the slightest idea how to train the more complex exercises since later exercises are all based on these basics found in the forms.

 

Forms are how great arts train basics and pass along information. Those who do not value forms do not value the systems that created them. These neophytes are the ones thinking that with their few puny years of training they have amassed the combat vision and combined understanding of all the ancient fighting monks and masters.

 

Jim

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-10 01:33 ]

[YODA]

On 2002-03-09 23:53, Shaolin wrote:

 

By way of example - imagine what would happen if Wing Chun was passed down to students with all the forms intact, a couple of drills and punches here and there but missing the basic theories and idioms of Wing Chun and Chi-Sao. All information about the Centerline etc all theories erased. The students would be left in the same predicament that many students find themselves in today - wondering how to fight and how to use their system as it was intended.

 

This is exactly the problem I have found with the WC people I have trained with. They only seem to have a very basic understanding of the fundemental principles that the system is based on. Like I've said before - I have every respect for the system but have not seen it performed as I believe it can be - apart from by JKD people.

 

 

 

 

[Angus]

I have a soft spot for kungfu/wushu, i must admit... I always liked the way they fight, and in my younger years the more side-on stances were appealing...

 

Angus