Why is kumite more important in western karate than kata?

[kenpo_fighter]

I definetely agree with what you are sying in regards to the "daycare" status of many schools, as well as the * you have to deal with as a teacher coming from the "soccer moms"....Its a shame that the American mentality is "Im paying so you work for ME"....Sorry Miss Soccer Mom....not in my dojo !......

The only thing that I disagree with (depending on where you were coming from) is the focus on the study of kata. I do agree that kata is a main focus (or at least should be), but I feel that all to many schools dont focus on the most important aspect of Kata, namely the "true" applications...bunkai, kaisai, and oyo. Literally ANYONE can learn the sequence of any kata, but without the knowledge of the hidden techniques found within the kata, you may as well have a school full of dancers just going through the motions.

i'm sorry. i may have missed that part in my submission. i also agree that Kata is VITAL to a martial artists' training. it is there where are all the "secrets" of martial arts are hidden. kumite & kata go hand in hand with each other. cannot have one without the other. i believe the one should know the proper application of a technique and not just keep doing it in the kata "because sensei said." my apologies if i didn't make that clear in my previous statment.

[Monkeymagic]

Thank you for all the responses.

I realise that this is a karate forum and that many have an opinion about this issue. believe it is an issue and that clubs do either focus on either kata or kumite. I have also researched that kumite is promoted more in the western world. The winning of trophies, competitions and championships is something that the west looks upon to prove it's worth.

I have often found that in kumite I loose my training techniques and concentrate on defence and atatck of that particular fight. I think that with constant practice of kata and it's hidden techniques we can only truely know how to fight in any situation.

I am far from this level and am sure many of you are too but as someone said, this is the origin of how practice for fighting was done, through kata then apply in kumite.

Your opinions are highly valuable to my research, please keep posting them.

Edited July 16, 2005 by Monkeymagic

[elbows_and_knees]

kumite when done properly is what is teaching you practical application. I'm not talking about light contact, pitty pat style point sparring where you can hit someone on top of the head with sloppy technique and get a point. I'm referring to good, hard sparring. That and bunkai teach you how to practically apply the techniques you are learning. Kata is also important, but proper sparring as a training tool should not be overlooked.

[elbows_and_knees]

\I have often found that in kumite I loose my training techniques and concentrate on defence and atatck of that particular fight. I think that with constant practice of kata and it's hidden techniques we can only truely know how to fight in any situation.

No offense, but you are sparring improperly. sparring is a training tool - don't think of it in terms of win / lose. When you do that, you fall into the mode that you described - you don't try new techniques and strategies, because you are too focused on not losing. When this happens, your progress will stagnate because you are no longer learning and experimenting.

When I spar, I spar with a goal. If I want to work slipping, then for the entire session I will slip. It doesn't matter if I get hit or not - I'm going to keep slipping, as that is my focus at the present time. When you spar with a goal, you will find that you make much better progress than if you just spar blindly.

[elbows_and_knees]

Kata is the most important aspect of the training. You can spar all you want, and yes, you will become a better fighter for sure. But through the study of kata, you will uncover the hidden techniques that make the system you study. By limiting yourself to just sparring, you limit yourself severely to the amount of techniques that you have in your arsenal.....kata will provide a much larger myriad of techniques for you to draw upon during sparring/fighting

That being said, there is nothing wrong with simplicity. I have a very good spinning heel kick, yet I have never used one in a fight... I haven't needed it. I think the beauty in alot of what we do is in the simplicity. Consequently, there's not really a need for thousands of techiques, IMO. It is great to know that they are there, but I wouldn't say that keeping it so simple limits your skill by any means.

[elbows_and_knees]

Most westerners tend to go much more kumite because of the history of the journey of karate. Briefly...From China to Okinawa, and then from Okinawa to Japan....the Okinawan understood most of what was being translated from Chinese in terms of all of the hidden techniques which are found throughout the katas of the systems they were studying, as well as many of the subtle nuances of these secrets.....techniques which really were not "gotten" by the Japanese....perfect example of this is the "journey" of Goju Ryu. After Yamaguchi "founded" Japanese Goju Ryu, it was because of his sporadic training with Miyagi that he didnt "get" the whole of Goju Ryu, and the languase barrier which also prevented him from "getting" all of the subtle nuances which are found in Traditional Okinawan Goju....essentially Yamaguchi had to "fill in the blanks", so to speak, and in addition to altering the katas from the original, he also added much more kumite, or free sparring because he never learned the real bunkai applications, or the two man forms which accompany the katas, the practice of which traditionally took the place of kumite. Yamaguchi's top student, Peter Urban, then founded USA/Urban Goju Ryu, and the same pattern follwed.....and so on and so on......Much of the reason westerners practice much more Kumite than originally found in Okinawa or China, and even parts of Japan is because of this pattern. Kyokushin, which is Japanese, and founded by Mas Oyama, was kinda the exception. Although Kyokushin has katas, there really are no "high level" hidden techniques in the bunkai application, as compared to Goju Ryu for example, which is rich with Tuite (pressure point) or Shaolin China Na (seizing and grabbing) . Kyokushin focuses on more full contact sparring, rather than any type of bunkai study, or two man forms accompanying the Kyokushin katas, of which there are none.

Aside from that answer, the real simple plain old truth is that most westerners typically dont have enough patience to stay with an art...a true art....long enough to learn really "high level" techniques.....the attitude is more like....."Yeah yeah..whatever...when do we get to the fighting part of class ????" They can and often do become good fighters, but very few westerners ever really wind up learning any real advanced high level techniques.

I know Im probably gonna get a lot of Flak for that.....so go ahead.....get it off your chest guys.....rip into me....lol

I dunno if I would be that extreme. I wouldn't say that they added sparring just because "they didn't get it" Matter of factly, funakoshi did NOT want to add sparring to his curriculum.

Look at the wonders that sparring did for judo. Look at the result it got them when they defeated the best ujutsu school in japan. Considering Kano's previous training, he definitely "got it", but he felt the need for a means of live application.

[elbows_and_knees]

Westerners do not understand that the point of martial arts is NONviolence. They just want to learn how to fight well, and unfortunately many dojo augment this emphasis and attitude.

Kata should always come first - without kata, how can one ever hope to execute a proper technique?

that's not necessarily true. MA with a tie to some religion are about non-violence. Karate, shaolin, etc. those which lack that tie - shuai chiao, for example, are not.

[Monkeymagic]

\I have often found that in kumite I loose my training techniques and concentrate on defence and atatck of that particular fight. I think that with constant practice of kata and it's hidden techniques we can only truely know how to fight in any situation.

No offense, but you are sparring improperly. sparring is a training tool - don't think of it in terms of win / lose. When you do that, you fall into the mode that you described - you don't try new techniques and strategies, because you are too focused on not losing. When this happens, your progress will stagnate because you are no longer learning and experimenting.

When I spar, I spar with a goal. If I want to work slipping, then for the entire session I will slip. It doesn't matter if I get hit or not - I'm going to keep slipping, as that is my focus at the present time. When you spar with a goal, you will find that you make much better progress than if you just spar blindly.

I understand what you are saying but I was trying to link what we learn in kata to what we do in kumite. I find that the techniques I have learned in kata, I forget. Maybe this is because I am concentrating on defence. But the better you are at these techniques, the better you should be in kumite.

You can learn kihon then go into kumite and use kumite experience only to improve your fighting technique. I don't know too much about thai boxing but I know it is mainly about attack and are there any kata in that MA? If not, how can you refer to what I was trying to explain?

Edited July 16, 2005 by Monkeymagic

[elbows_and_knees]

no, it's not all attack. as with anything, there are various methods, as people differ in mentality. What you find typically are:

agressive

defensive

elusive

tricky

what you are depends on your tendencies as a fighter.

you can use what you learn in your forms while sparring. the same thing applies. You must make a conscious effort to use it. If you do not, you will likely never use it. If you have to, drill it repeatedly first. After you are comfortable with that, THEN make the effort to add it to your sparring. forgetting things is natural and you will NEVER be able to just spontaneously use it all, but you can use much of it.

as for the last part of your question, I've trained traditional styles in the past, so I've done kata before. for example, since you are in bejing, you may have seen kung fu forms that use the "shoot the bow" technique. One of the applications for it is a fireman's carry. You can drill this repeatedly, then work it into sparring.

[Khan]

I think its because the west simply doesn't see the practicality in doing kata's. I think that they find that Kata's are just ways of testing your skills, but if you don't practise those skills against another human, then how will you know what it feels like when you get in the street?