Defense against School Scuffles

[Groinstrike]

In karate, Kumite matches are controlled, stopped every time a point is scored, and stopped if an opponent gives up.

At school, kids shove each other, and if a real fight happens, it is not controlled (duh) and often, multiple people gang up on one person.

I am too worried about getting suspended to get in a fight, but how are you supposed to defend against pushing? I often used perry blocks but many times, there are multiple people pushing me in the middle. I don't hang out with these bullies, but sometimes, they follow me.

What's your suggestions to defend against this?

If it is just pushing, you have nothing to defend against, when it becomes something more dangerous than just shoving, then you have a right to defend yourself. imho

[MasterPain]

I have to agree here, if you are not really threatened, and they have shown no sign of really wanting to hurt you, then let the authorities deal with it. For one thing, let's say you hit one of them, then they would all become violent. Not only is this very dangerous to you, but to deal with multiple people seriously trying to hurt you would require attacking with extreme violence until you could escape or they decide not to fight anymore. I would hate to leave someone permanently injured because they pushed me.

[Adamo]

I found this thread interesting. Let me share my thoughts here....

I worked at a school district for 6 years. My own boss was a 3rd degree Shotokan instructor. Him and I discussed this same issue before.

Majority of fights that occur are just pushing and simple things. Stuff you can run away from and be fine. Very few fights (at least in our area) are dangerous to students. Good? No! But not going to cause injury or death.

If such a fight where to occur, you must defend yourself instead of the alternative. That's a given.

The harsh reality of the school system is different. When discussing this matter with the school's administrators, I found out that in the state of Illinois, ANYBODY in a fight must be punished. Fighting results in automatic suspension for a few days or worse if necessary. If you weren't the person to initiate the attack, but you still attacked back, you still by law will receive punishment which is suppose to be suspension.

[joesteph]

The harsh reality of the school system is different. When discussing this matter with the school's administrators, I found out that in the state of Illinois, ANYBODY in a fight must be punished. Fighting results in automatic suspension for a few days or worse if necessary. If you weren't the person to initiate the attack, but you still attacked back, you still by law will receive punishment which is suppose to be suspension.

My boys went through three incidents at their school last academic year, and they were only in second grade. It seems that kids who are special needs are often targets. I live in NJ.

In After-Care, they fought off a boy who started a fight by coming up behind them and scratching the backs of their necks. They learned anti-bully fighting from their karate teacher. Neosporin was put on the scratch marks, the boy who started it was suspended (at that grade level, not permitted to eat with the other children for the rest of the week), and he kept away from them for the rest of the year.

In the schoolyard, a large boy (with whom my children once had play dates with, but he started fights at those times) and his friend went up to my sons to taunt them. My boys yelled at them to stop and stormed off--just as their karate teacher had taught them. They weren't followed, I found out about it, and the aides in the schoolyard were then watchful to prevent a reoccurrance. If they had been followed, they were resolved to defend themselves; if the aides didn't become watchful and it happened again, they were prepared to go to the next level.

At lunch time, one of the students from another class who was sitting with friends behind my sons started taunting David. He stood up and yelled at her to stop. When her friends at her table chimed in, Patrick stood up and yelled at them to stop. Aides came over before a fight--which my boys would have done to defend themselves--occurred, the children at that table were put on suspension (the same system of not being permitted to eat lunch with the other children for the rest of the week), and a letter from the principal was sent home to each child's parent.

All of this happened during the second grade. My children have not been targeted in school by anyone this year in third grade. I disagree with the Illinois law, or perhaps its intepretation. (Don't like it? Your child's being punished for self-defense? Get a lawyer. I'm prepared to do it.) Those lawmakers are likely presenting "zero tolerance" and justifying injustice with "Sometimes the innocent must suffer with the guilty."

Baloney.

[Lupin1]

I disagree with the Illinois law, or perhaps its intepretation. (Don't like it? Your child's being punished for self-defense? Get a lawyer. I'm prepared to do it.) Those lawmakers are likely presenting "zero tolerance" and justifying injustice with "Sometimes the innocent must suffer with the guilty."

Hey-- when I was in middle school I was suspended because a boy punched me in the face. I didn't even try to defend myself (I was too busy thinking the teacher's reaction was halarious and was cracking up through two handfuls of blood). The policy was (and I'm sure still is) if you're involved in a fight, you're suspended. I knew plenty of kids who got suspended because some kid hit them while they did absolutely nothing. It's crazy. Of course my suspension wasn't bad because my parents were completely on my side (in fact, my mother was upset at me for not punching the kid back) and to this day I consider it a point of honor that I was suspended in school (I'm a total goody-goody and so the few times I did get in trouble are points of honor for me). But it's still wrong.

And btw-- that wasn't even a fight. It was an accident. We were (verbally) joking around during class and he went to hit me in the shoulder to make me stop, but being a middle school boy who just got out of a growth spurt, he misjudged his height compared to mine and popped me right in the nose right in front of the teacher. It didn't matter that it was a accident or that I didn't even touch him-- we were both still suspended for "fighting" and we weren't let back in school until we had both written an essay on we were wrong to fight (which we never actually got into a fight, so we both had to make stuff up) and we had to go to mediation (and when we got there we simply declared we weren't mad at each other. They didn't believe and we still had to sit there for half an hour telling them we were friends and didn't need mediation).

[Groinstrike]

I found this thread interesting. Let me share my thoughts here....

I worked at a school district for 6 years. My own boss was a 3rd degree Shotokan instructor. Him and I discussed this same issue before.

Majority of fights that occur are just pushing and simple things. Stuff you can run away from and be fine. Very few fights (at least in our area) are dangerous to students. Good? No! But not going to cause injury or death.

If such a fight where to occur, you must defend yourself instead of the alternative. That's a given.

The harsh reality of the school system is different. When discussing this matter with the school's administrators, I found out that in the state of Illinois, ANYBODY in a fight must be punished. Fighting results in automatic suspension for a few days or worse if necessary. If you weren't the person to initiate the attack, but you still attacked back, you still by law will receive punishment which is suppose to be suspension.

Being a teacher and Illinois resident for all my life I don't agree with much that goes on in my state. This being one example, imo we are teaching kidsto be helpless. We are teaching them that if there is a problem that somebody will always be there to step in and fix it. Sorry not going to happen. People are taught that the police will be there to protect them from evil. When in reality police are there to usually clean up the mess. I will now vacate the soap box.

[rmurray]

The OP here was from 2004. This kid has probably graduated from college already. Hopefully he isn't having trouble with bullies anymore.

[tallgeese]

It still makes for interesting discussion. It's not like the problem is going away anytime soon.

And yes, as an Illinois resident, we do teach just about everyone in our state to be victims with policies like this.

[ShotokanKid]

The OP here was from 2004. This kid has probably graduated from college already. Hopefully he isn't having trouble with bullies anymore.

You're right, bullying is a thing of the past for me. It's interesting to see how long this thread has been commented on. It's also interesting that bullying disappears as (most) people become adults. The other thing that I always laugh to myself about is all the fact that my life now is probably 10 times better than all those people who made my life miserable when I was in junior high school. In the end, I think I'm almost glad I got bullied because it taught me how to deal with adversity and made me a tougher yet more compassionate person and I hope that by me getting bullied, it saved someone else from getting picked on.

[Patrick]

I just wanted to say that this thread is amazing.

Reading through it, looking back on it and reading ShotokanKid's comments then and now and having him here to comment. It's very meaningful.

Thank you for sharing, Joey, and for your great contributions to this community. Happy for you, being able to look back at it with such perspective, and proud to have you here.

Patrick