Training Methodology

[UseoForce]

I think many people have been comparing styles and debating with completly wrong criteria.

In my opinion, the only way a style/art/method can be effective is you train all out with full contact. Actual techniques are of relatively little importance. Now, I understand that that the UFC and other mixed martial arts events aren't perfect for analyzing fighting styles because of rules, environment, etc. but hear me out

These are the miost effective styles in NHB competition:

BJJ, Boxing (kick), Muay Thai, Freestyle Wrestling, Greco Roman Wrestling

What do they all have in common? Full contact. Except for BJJ, each of these styles has only a few techniques (even with BJJ, only a few BJJ techniques are used regularly in competition).

So, for an art to be effective, you must train full contact, just as you would apply the techniques in a real fight.

[Aodhan]

I think many people have been comparing styles and debating with completly wrong criteria.

In my opinion, the only way a style/art/method can be effective is you train all out with full contact. Actual techniques are of relatively little importance. Now, I understand that that the UFC and other mixed martial arts events aren't perfect for analyzing fighting styles because of rules, environment, etc. but hear me out

These are the miost effective styles in NHB competition:

BJJ, Boxing (kick), Muay Thai, Freestyle Wrestling, Greco Roman Wrestling

What do they all have in common? Full contact. Except for BJJ, each of these styles has only a few techniques (even with BJJ, only a few BJJ techniques are used regularly in competition).

So, for an art to be effective, you must train full contact, just as you would apply the techniques in a real fight.

If that's the case, why train in MA at all? Why not just go out with your friends and start a no holds barred fight club? You'll learn what works, and get toughened at the same time.

Aodhan

[UseoForce]

Obviously, that would be dangerous.

I'm not saying to recklessly go beat the crap out of eachother. This is with proper instruction, supervision, training, and protective equiment. Different degrees of contact are appropraite for different levels. But, you cannot expect to apply your techniques in a self-defense situation when under extreme stress if you've never applied them full force before. Again, I'm not saying to train recklessly.

Note: This methodology was also what made Jigoro Kano's judo so effective against tradition JJ that did not practice full contact.

Note: Full contact, to me, does not me no rules. It means applying a technique the same in training as you would on the street. I.E: Osoto gari or a cross are performed in a nearly identical fashion whether in the dojo or on the street.

[Aodhan]

Obviously, that would be dangerous.

I'm not saying to recklessly go beat the crap out of eachother. This is with proper instruction, supervision, training, and protective equiment. Different degrees of contact are appropraite for different levels. But, you cannot expect to apply your techniques in a self-defense situation when under extreme stress if you've never applied them full force before. Again, I'm not saying to train recklessly.

Note: This methodology was also what made Jigoro Kano's judo so effective against tradition JJ that did not practice full contact.

Note: Full contact, to me, does not me no rules. It means applying a technique the same in training as you would on the street. I.E: Osoto gari or a cross are performed in a nearly identical fashion whether in the dojo or on the street.

I guess I don't see the difference. If you have a technique that is designed to dislocate a shoulder, you should dislocate the shoulder in practice? That's full force, anything less and you aren't training like you are on the street.

Different training philosophies I gues...

Aodhan

[UseoForce]

No, that's not what I mean.

Here it is in simple terms:

Full Contact

I throw my resisting opponent in the dojo using osoto gari.

I get attacked, I throw my resisting opponent with osoto gari.

Not full contact

My partner, even after I've learned the technique, cooperates completely when I attempt my throw.

I get attacked, and unused to resistance, I find I am unable to throw my opponent.

Bruce Lee advocates this approach to fighting in his Tao of Jeet Kune Do, in his list of "The Facts of Jeet Kune Do":

"9. All-out sparring and the actual contact training on moving targets."

[Sam]

thats not full contact - thats full resistance then.....

full ocntact as Aodhan pointed out wouldnt involve training to a point where you and your partner would become a mass of injuries and broken bones...

I agree training with resistance is a good idea.... but not the only way to train as there is a lot that cant be taught from a resistive training style..... its a good way to go once youve got the basics sorted though.

[granmasterchen]

Many moves exist that can kill a person in one blow. Yet for obvious reasons we don't allow these moves in competition. So on that note, you can't judge effective fighting styles of a competition to what may or may not be effective in the street.

I can guarantee you that if these blows were allowed in competition;

1. not too many people would still compete

2. There would be lots of maimed and dead comptetitiors.

think about fighters that get into a grapple....all of a sudden the one shoots his arm up and tears out the other's throat....quick match....winner by death....

my point is; don't judge competition fighting effectiveness to what may be effective in real life street combat

[UseoForce]

My point is, how do you know you'd be able to execute that lethal technique if you've never tried it before? Think back to when you began martial arts. How many techniques did you get the first time?

[Sam]

Another point is - the human body is far more resistant than many people give credit for..... ripping someones throat out would be much harder than just saying it.... im not saying its impossible but the idea we wold have LOTS of dead bodies is something i dont agree with - id say there would be a number of fatalities quite regularly but i image most matches would not end that way.

Secondly - just saying becuase youve never practiced it how do you know it works - there are ways of practicing even moves like a throat grab on equipment - just about grip, impulse and follow through.

[AngelaG]

Practicing full resistance is pointless. Why? Quite simply that in the street I would not give you a chance to resist me if I tried to throw you; I would strike you first, poke you in the eye, use BAR etc.

we still get newbies that will stand there and say "this technique doesn't work", and we have to explain that's because the partner has had to indicate the first part of the move for safety reasons.