shotokan kobudo question

[kitsune_no_tama]

does anyone here know if it's common to apply kanku series katas to the sai? in my dojo it is introduced to mid level students, but i dont know if thats just a way to get high level technique squeezed in, or if my sensei is just a lazy old lout that can't make up his own kata to teach us, let alone teach us a sai kata that actually exists AS a sai kata.thx for ur time.

[AnonymousOne]

I am in a derivative of Shotokan and weapons are not taught.

I am not sure that Shotokan itself teaches weapons either, but I dont think so.

I dont see the point myself, you cant carry them on the street

[cheeks]

there may or may not be a sai kata, but that shouldn't stop you practising basic kata with the sai. it could add a whole new dimension to your learning

[Sauzin]

Practicing and teaching empty hand kata with a sai in it is fairly common in general, though I don't know specifically about shotokan. I really don't suggest that people do this though. As I have mentioned in the weapons forum I feel that any uniqueness and value that learning a weapon gives you is lost when you do this. I mean sure you can take a weapon and apply the same principles as open hand and get some effectiveness. But you won't get anywhere near the effectiveness as you would if you know and apply the principles unique to the weapon. To really learn these principles you need a kata designed specifically for the weapon. I would also say that these "unique principles" are much more backwards compatible then empty hand principles are forwards compatible. Sai kata, designed for the sai, teach these principles in a very unique way. And if you don't practice and learn these principles from the weapon, why are you wasting your time with it?

[Sauzin]

One more thing. I wouldn't say your sensei is a lazy lout. I would say that he likely hasn't had the opportunity to get real kobudo training but still want's his students to gain some experience in this weapon. It's a tough conflict when you want the best for your students. My suggestion to him would be to not bother with sai unless he can get a guest instructor in who knows kobudo and instead focus on teaching the art that he knows. I would suggest that this will bring the most value to his class. I am all for guest instructors in the classes I teach. Because I'd be colored purple before I'd try teaching Hapkido or the Chinese broadsword to anyone.

[papaschtroumpf]

shotokan doesn't have weapon kata

A few katas have bunkai that applys to defending against weapons though. They could be considered weapon kata in that you might learn to grab a bo from someone's hands and whack them with it but the emphasis is not an the weapon itself.

[kitsune_no_tama]

the thing is with this kata we do for our kobudo, i recently started looking for aids on the internet to work on my kata. i found kanku dai and kanku sho in a video and it turned out exactly like our sai kata, with a few changes to strikes being that the use of the sai is different. he claimed to have invented the kata for the sai, but i think he just wanted to make himself more credible to me. you see, i already knew the katas done with the sai, but i found an empty hand version, being the original kata. from what i know, empty hand kata's were before kobudo katas because they only recently joined back together in my dojo. the reason we learn weapons is because budo and kobudo are "brother and sister" as my sensei says. i tried looking up "kanku sho no sai",etc.,but as far as i know, its not for the sai. i admire his eye for a good adaptation, but i can't respect that he told me he invented the kata.

(p.s. smurf, im aware that shotokan in itsself is strictly empty hand, but im aware also that we use inter-style katas applied to shotokan ideals and adapted to how our karate-ka would make best use of the movements. for example, we learn tokumine no kon as our first bo kata in yellow belt.)

[papaschtroumpf]

LOL, you called me smurf!

[kitsune_no_tama]

i cant spell ur name otherwise!

[kitsune_no_tama]

hmm this thread died fast. i was hoping to get some more information.