My critisism of NHB/mma events

[goshinman]

Over the years we have had huge debates over the role of NHB events and which martial arts work and don't work. All of the arguments have been accounted for and they usually go as follows; " (insert art) doesn't work in a real fight! Name one person from that style to ever compete in NHB events!" To which the usual response is; " NHB events arent real streetfights, the rules are too limiting, they don't allow eye gouges, groin shots, or fish hooks!"

This banter typically goes on and on for about 20 pages until it gets boring and then a few days later it gets replayed in another post in a different forum.

Well here is something that I haven't seen anyone bring up. Rorion said that his purpose of introducing nhb was to clear the air as to what styles worked in a real fight and which didn't right? But here is the problem with that. It actually proved that certain styles were superior to others, but that wasn't the intent. Take the cop that won ufc 3 I belive it was. He was a japanese jujitsu guy wasn't he? In ufc 4 he took out a former pro boxer with a hip throw and submitted him with an armbar before getting hurt. Pat Smith Ko'ed and submitted quite a few people before losing to Ken and then Royce and he was into TKD and some kind of African martial art wasn't he? Keith Hackney was a white crane Kenpoka wasn't he? The list can go on.

My point is that just because they didn't win the ufc doesn't prove that their styles don't work in a real fight now does it? It just didn't win against grappling in general and bjj in paticular. But they were effective nonetheless. It just proves the point that just becaese it didn't work in the ring doesn't mean it won't work in the street.

[TJS]

I think it generally proved that when a grappler and a sriker fight the grappler will usually win. Striking stlyes certainly arent useless though.

You also have to look at whotch stlyes were able to cross train and become sucessful so far the stlyes that have been able to do that are

Boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ, Judo, wrestling, sambo and there are a few karate guy mainly from kyokushin and its ofshoots aswell.

But you are right there are stlyes that dont work well against trained fighters but will help people on the street.

[glockmeister]

I think it generally proved that when a grappler and a sriker fight the grappler will usually win. .

What proves this? Are we talking the ring or the street?

[TJS]

I think it generally proved that when a grappler and a sriker fight the grappler will usually win. .

What proves this? Are we talking the ring or the street?

that fact that when a grappler and a striker fought in the early days 9 times out of 10 the Grappler woudl get a takedown and finish his opponet with strikes or a submission.

I saw no reason to belive the fights that took place in the first 3-4 UFC's would have been any diffrent if they were in a field or an alley. Is it possible? yes but proabably not. Infact The mat actually helped alot of the strikers since they would usually hit their head on the ground during the takedown.

[jarrettmeyer]

This will sound really simplistic, but if I want to win, regardless of sparring, ring, or street, then I have to ...

a. Make you fight my fight.

b. Be better trained than you at my game.

How many grapplers are good enough to take a few shots, get in, get the takedown, and grapple? Grapplers, in fact, study this as part of their practice routine. It is an integral part of their art.

How many strikers practice keeping a grappler from grappling? If I study MT, then what am I going to learn/do/add to my practice to make sure that the bjj practicioner cannot get his hands on me?

Now that we've decided which fight will be fought, who's better trained?

[TJS]

This will sound really simplistic, but if I want to win, regardless of sparring, ring, or street, then I have to ...

a. Make you fight my fight.

b. Be better trained than you at my game.

How many grapplers are good enough to take a few shots, get in, get the takedown, and grapple? Grapplers, in fact, study this as part of their practice routine. It is an integral part of their art.

How many strikers practice keeping a grappler from grappling? If I study MT, then what am I going to learn/do/add to my practice to make sure that the bjj practicioner cannot get his hands on me?

Now that we've decided which fight will be fought, who's better trained?

well said and since it's easier to close distance then to keep it and strike the striker has to really be on top if his game.

[judoguy]

The reason BJJ worked so well in the UFC and in general is strategy. If your not trained in grappling they take you down and submit you. If you are well trained on the ground they can trap you in their guard forever until you make a mistake and they gotcha' ala Royce Gracie v Ken Shamrock in ufc 1. The guard is a very deceptive position because it gives the APPEARANCE of vulnerability. If you're in a good BJJ players guard it LOOKS like you can lean back and go for a leglock, but then next thing you know your being choked out. That is why bjj is so effective on the ground on your back.

As for the main post I agree completly. If you want to be good against a well trained opponent; bjj, judo, muay thai, sambo, kyokushin, TKD (non olympic), shuai chiao, all styles of western wrestling, and boxing/kickboxing are the way to go. One of the reasons, among others, is because these arts can be both offensive and defensive in nature whereas other arts are all about trying to react to your opponents aggression. Even if you look at more modern arts like jkd, defendo, krav maga, all of those arts are based on the best elements from the afore

mentioned styles. But that does not negate the fact that other styles can and have prepared people for conflicts on the streets against untrained to semi trained opponents.

[Sam]

jarrettmeyer made a very good point... but to expand on it.

Avoiding getting hit with a strike is a lot easier to deal with than escaping from a hold....

Its much easier for you to see a strike and compensate fro it with a block dodge, bide you time and get inside to make a submissino... where the striker would be lost....

From the other point of view once some1 is that close to you without training i imagine it would be very difficult to know what to do at all...

Basically what im saying is blocking and avoiding strikers is more natural to people than escaping from holds... therefore in a fight striker vs grappler the grappler will have a slight advantage [at the same skill levels].

This is coming from some1 who trains in a striking only art....

[Treebranch]

The Street is not the Ring. What's made for the ring works for certain scenarios that you may find in a street fight, but it will not cover the types of scenarios Combat MA's cover. Each is designed for different purposes and I see nothing wrong with that. Who cares what people say.

[FETKD]

I think the biggest thing for strikers against grapplers is

if the striker is not used to being put on the ground, they usually tend to give up thus the fight is lost, yet if the striker has experience with holds and such the right strike at just the right time could end it all,

in my training I've seen a person knocked out in an instance, yet I've seen several people choked out, a good choke out depending on the person and his/her training and conditioning usually takes between 5-30 seconds before the person is unconcious. A strike maybe be instantanious, but if timing is off, or mis of target your screwed,

I just think it's good to be well rounded, not to rely on a strike or a grapple yet to adapt and bend with the situation.

As far as ring or street goes. A lot is proven in the ring however On the street it's life or death and too much is at stake, it could be the difference between lying in your own bed that night or lying in a grave.

A fighter becomes a whole different person when it matters.