a "different" kind of punch...

[Skeptic 2004]

I took a visit to Shorin Ryuu's blog a few days ago and left a comment on his article "The Chambered Fist" (his response to the "re-action hand" thread: http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=20242) which described an unusual way of punching that I've been learning since November. Rather than whorde the knowledge to myself and those who read his blog, I figured I would share a description of it and hear your thoughts. I apologize for any errors in its description, and these errors are entirely my own.

I present for your edification my attempt at a description of "the Nakata gyakuzuki (reverse punch)", Nakata being the name of my instructor who is sort of notorious for his punch. His punching methodology is unlike any I've seen so far in my training with various instructors (and I've had the fortune of training with quite a few quality teachers). I describe the reverse punch since it is easiest to see and understand the mechanics of his methodology as compared to other types of punches (e.g., lead jab, uppercut, roundhouse/hook punch, etc.).

1.) Stand in a kihon stance (a shizentai/natural stance) and angle your body off slightly to whatever your target is. That is, don't stand with your hips and shoulders facing full front (the punch works standing full front, but it's easier to see the mechanics of his punch if you're angled off, and there other mechanics involved if you're facing full front). Make sure you have good posture (chin up!) and that your chest is flared (kinda like you're a body builder...). Make sure that the toes of your "lead" leg point forward and the toes of your "back" leg point out at 45 degrees (I use quotes in that in a natural stance there's barely a heel-to-toe difference between how much the "lead" leg leads).

2.) Extend the punching hand from chamber as if you were going to punch like normal from the waist (though it still works if you have your hands up in a ready position), but without turning the koshi...otherwise you hazusu (i.e., hand moves first...hips rotate last. If you rotate hips first and then extend your hand, you hazusu, or negate/deadlock your power). Do not rotate the fist yet. You should be palm up, and assuming you're angled off, your arm should be across your chest at your target. Keep your chest flared. Keep your wrists straight and locked (make sure they aren't bent outward too much or curled inward too much).

3.) When you rotate your fist, use your koshi at the same time (turn your hips as you rotate your fist) as if they were inseparable. When the koshi rotates, you bring your hara and weight forward, adding that extra umph! to that punch. Don't over-rotate. Rotate just enough that the hara is forward. Rotating too much throws your weight off at an angle, and you lose power.

Voila. The Nakata gyakuzuki. Obviously, when performed this should all be done smoothly and there are a ton of other things that go into it (keeping your chest flared, keeping your posture straight, keeping your chin up, using gamaku, rooting yourself with the outside edges of your feet, bringing hara forward, keeping a tight fist at all times if you plan on punching with a closed fist yet inhaling/relaxing all other muscles as you extend your punch, exhaling/contracting your muscles and accelerating your punch on contact, etc.). Rotation of the fist (and thus, the koshi) does not occur until right after impact, so on initial contact, you're actually hitting palm up with the koshi unturned. Rotating the fist and koshi drives the punch into and through the target for penetrating power. Nakata's punch has incredible penetration, and this is what made his punch so famous/unusual.

Try this punch on for size on a bag or a pad (or a person... ). If you do it right, you might be pleasantly surprised by the results. I've found it actually takes less effort to punch with the same amount of power than the old way I used to punch. The trick is doing the punch correctly - it has a very steep learning curve. But, once it is mastered, it is very effective. I speak from experience having been clocked by it...

[P.A.L]

hard for me to understand exactly, is your back leg drag or rotate to shizentai at the end from 45 starting angel? when whould you start rotating your fist compare to your chest angel, if you start from chest at 45 off? i think this is the way we punch in kihon katas I,II while walking

i will try it in a stationary position like a final punch when i use my weight for more penetration.as i understood i should delay my fist rotation compare to hip rotation.

[shotochem]

This sounds like a standard Shotokan reverse punch.

[Sauzin]

It has a lot of similarities to the way we do punches. There are a few differences though. We don't stand upright with our chest out. We believe that disconnects the shoulders. Instead we drop our shoulders down and slightly forward. We always have a slight cant forward as well. Our back is never perpendicular to the ground.

Step 1: For the reverse punch we start in a narrower stance and rotate our back leg out into a wider stance as we make our first hip rotation. All hip rotations are made toward the target. We don't rotate our hip as much as we thrust with it. At this point we don't fully extend our hip.

Step 2: The punch launches, palm up.

Step 3: Just before the punch turns our hip again thrusts forward as our back leg straitens. At this point our hip is extended to the point where if it turned further it would veer off target. It takes a little while to learn where this point is.

Step 4: Impact occurs as the punch turns over.

In regards to hara, which I believe literally means center or center of ones being, as our structure changes so does our center. It does move slightly forward in this process but we don't focus on it. Instead we focus on refining the movement so that everything flows together in the direction of the strike and remains connected. The end result is the same however.

[Skeptic 2004]

Thanks everyone for their comments. I have some comments in reply.

Sauzin:

We don't stand upright with our chest out. We believe that disconnects the shoulders.

As a matter of fact it is very difficult to properly flare your chest when you are raising your shoulders. Try it. If you raise your shoulders, you chest is no longer flared. If you flare your chest, your shoulders naturally drop. I neglected to mention that shoulders should be down.

we drop our shoulders down and slightly forward. We always have a slight cant forward as well. Our back is never perpendicular to the ground.

I think there's a thread about the argument concerning the "straight", perpendicular back. The slight forward cant seems okay to me (there's several places in kata where we lean forward anyway) so long as the back is "straight" and unrounded (with a small inward arc in the lower back/lumbar vertabrae). With your shoulders forward (however slightly), it seems hard to keep your back "straight". With your shoulders slightly forward it sounds like you're rounding your back, breaking posture, and as a result instead of all of your weight going forward into your opponent, some of it goes back. Thus, you sacrifice power. I might be wrong...just musing on your description of your posture. There are many Chinese styles where the key posture is the rounded back (chen ting hua bagua for instance...a style I played with for a few months) but I know very little to comment on their power. I do know that postures with a "straight", unrounded back (with a slight inward arc of the lower back) with shoulders back tend to deliver more powerful techniques than postures with rounded backs with shoulders forward. This is because in the former posture, hara is forward while in the latter posture, hara is held back. Of course this argument is only applicable to karate styles; as I mentioned I don't know enough about the Chinese styles. Not to denigrate from your own experiences or what you've been taught, Sauzin, I'm just musing aloud at this point.

Shotochem:

This sounds like a standard Shotokan reverse punch.

Hmm...Shorin Ryuu and I trained briefly with a very talented Shotokan karateka early in our training years (I'm trying to remember if he was shodan or 1st kyu). His reverse punch looked nothing like the punch I attempted to describe. Like I said, training with Nakata, this is the first and only place I've seen people punch like this. I could be wrong though...

P.A.L:

The punch I described is exactly the gyakuzuki you do when doing the kihon kata. Stationary practice is a good idea to get a feel for this punch. Shizentai may be a misnomer for the kihon stance. Basically, your feet are shoulder width apart (measured from the heels). If you draw a line on the floor your front foot's heel and your back leg's toe are on the line. Your front foot's toes are pointing forward, your back foot's toes are at 45. Your back leg doesn't rotate. You rotate your fist after you've made contact with your target. If you're punching air, rotate your fist at the last possible moment. The punch should come completely across your body before you even think about rotating. Naturally, when you simulatenously rotate your fist and koshi, your angled off body will face full forward with all your weight behind your punch. Hope this helps.

Any more thoughts are appreciated!

[shotochem]

If you rotate hips first and then extend your hand, you hazusu, or negate/deadlock your power). Do not rotate the fist yet. You should be palm up, and assuming you're angled off, your arm should be across your chest at your target. Keep your chest flared. Keep your wrists straight and locked (make sure they aren't bent outward too much or curled inward too much).

I find I get quite a bit of power when I engage the lead legs' hip followed by the rear fist slightly ahead of the rear hip which is driving through the target propelling the punch. I liken the motion to a follow through or the same feel as a whip cracking. It's hard to explain but once you get the feel of it you can tell the difference.

[Sauzin]

Thanks everyone for their comments. I have some comments in reply.

As a matter of fact it is very difficult to properly flare your chest when you are raising your shoulders. Try it. If you raise your shoulders, you chest is no longer flared. If you flare your chest, your shoulders naturally drop. I neglected to mention that shoulders should be down.

I'll give you that. This and the fact that I have yet to see the karate style that teaches to raise you shoulder are the reasons I assumed you were dropping them.

I think there's a thread about the argument concerning the "straight", perpendicular back. The slight forward cant seems okay to me (there's several places in kata where we lean forward anyway) so long as the back is "straight" and unrounded (with a small inward arc in the lower back/lumbar vertabrae). With your shoulders forward (however slightly), it seems hard to keep your back "straight". With your shoulders slightly forward it sounds like you're rounding your back, breaking posture, and as a result instead of all of your weight going forward into your opponent, some of it goes back. Thus, you sacrifice power. I might be wrong...just musing on your description of your posture. There are many Chinese styles where the key posture is the rounded back (chen ting hua bagua for instance...a style I played with for a few months) but I know very little to comment on their power. I do know that postures with a "straight", unrounded back (with a slight inward arc of the lower back) with shoulders back tend to deliver more powerful techniques than postures with rounded backs with shoulders forward. This is because in the former posture, hara is forward while in the latter posture, hara is held back. Of course this argument is only applicable to karate styles; as I mentioned I don't know enough about the Chinese styles. Not to denigrate from your own experiences or what you've been taught, Sauzin, I'm just musing aloud at this point.

Good points, please let me muse a bit. I have practiced the turtle back posture, it's good for somethings, but has some overall maneuvering issues and is not what I was referring to. I appreciate your comments on the cant and the shoulders being slightly forward but really they go hand and hand. This is why I really don't understand why you would think that having the shoulders slightly forward and down in a more natural position would prevent reciprocal force from being redirected or prevent the projection of your hara. In fact those reasons, better body alignment for the redirection of reciprocal force and moving your center forward are the exact reasons we do it. But I've always said that if you can't show don't tell. So give the following a try:

Flair out the chest with the shoulders down and raise your arm out to your side to where it is parallel to the ground. Have someone try and push it backwards, then have someone try and push it forwards, then have someone try and push it down. Now relax your chest and lower back muscles. Allow your shoulders to come slightly forward, the amount varies from individual to individual. Some people have trained themselves the shift their shoulders back and chest forward and it feels natural. They will need to shift their shoulders at least an inch. Others will barely need to shift at all but it should look natural, not like someone curving their back (in or out). They should also shift their shoulders down causing a feeling of your shoulder, upper back, and lateral muscles wrapping and gripping around your shoulder. Now try the same test I first mentioned. You should notice quite a difference.

You can also test this with the arm in from of you in the same position as a punch, it will have a similar though less dramatic effect. You can also test this by having someone strike, crane fist, or pinch your shoulders. You should notice less pain in the natural and slightly forward down position of your shoulders. I've tested this on several individuals who came to class with the tendency to flair their chest. So far I have yet to see one individual who had stronger structure in the flaired position then in the slightly forward position.

Again I appreciate your observations. Give it a test, let me know what you think.

[pers]

This sounds like a standard Shotokan reverse punch.

yuo are absuloutly right ! i thought of exactly the same before I read your reply ! We practice that in basic form and free style form ,,once the mechanics of the technique is grasped it's distance and timing which makes it win.

[Killer Miller]

Yes, it is the standard basic reverse punch in shotokan. Except, your hips do move first. Although, the hips can actually move when ever you want to move them depending on when you want to apply energy or force. Nothing new, old school... What he describes would be the method used more for free style sparring when the timing of the execution is not always pre-determined.

- Killer -

[Skeptic 2004]

I find it interesting that all of you Shotokan guys say this is the same reverse punch in Shotokan. I'm going to go find a Shotokan dojo and watch a class. Meanwhile, I haven't been able to try your experiment, Sauzin, but I will tonight in class.

In ALL of Nakata's punches, the koshi is the last thing that moves in all applications (kata, sparring, basics, etc.). I really wish I could show you guys a video....