Aikido and Realistic Attack

[Shaolin]

I do not study Aikido as of yet but I have been doing some research and plan to join, what looks like a really good school I found in NYC soon to broaden my martial art horizons. I have come to understand that practicing techniques with realistic attacks is critical to getting the techniques to work right.

 

As I understand it there is no attack in Aikido so this seems to present a kind of Catch-22 situation. So how do those of you who train get good attacks in with the training? Do some schools teach attack or how to attack as the uke?

 

Jim

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-24 05:59 ]

[Cory Reynolds]

I have a friend who trained at a fantastic Aikido school in Atlanta, Georgia who was extreemly effective when he shown me different techniques. The only problem though is that like you said, they don't have very good attacking skills. An Aikidoist, from the limited bit that I've seen, has to draw out a pretty dedicated punch or kick from the attacker to use many of their techniques. I'm not sure how effective they would be against someone like a boxer who throws very quick jabs and other punches. I've wondered this for years actually.

[ad]

my brother does it and the techniques he showed me were very intersting and dynamic and effective

 

but not practical

 

i felt aikido removed the simple basics which are needed to become a good martial artist, its mainly a grappling art, if you want one, dont choose aikido, try bjj

[Cory Reynolds]

Whoa, Aikido is deffinately not a grappling art. Throws and takedowns, yes, but I don't think the followup restraints could be considered grappling.

[Shaolin]

On 2002-02-25 21:25, Cory Reynolds wrote:

 

Whoa, Aikido is deffinately not a grappling art. Throws and takedowns, yes, but I don't think the followup restraints could be considered grappling.

 

Well to me joint locks = grappling

 

Where are all the Aikido people out there?????????

 

 

[Shaolin]

On 2002-02-25 17:33, ad wrote:

 

my brother does it and the techniques he showed me were very intersting and dynamic and effective

 

but not practical

 

i felt aikido removed the simple basics which are needed to become a good martial artist, its mainly a grappling art, if you want one, dont choose aikido, try bjj

 

Well I don't think that Steven Seagal would agree with you.

 

Aikido is a very advanced system, if a bit de-fanged that unlike most other systems out there operates on combat concepts. It is mainly a standup system that uses throws and joint locks to get the job done. I would like to know what reasons people have for thinking it is not practical. The most difficult part of the system IMO is the initial interception (of the attack) aspect, which is no problem for me since Wing Chun takes care of that and can actually set up the opponent for Aikido. Actually Wing Chun and Aikido have a lot in common: they both use similar principles - the main difference is that Aikido tries not to kill the opponent and Wing Chun tries reeally hard to kill the opponent - as fast and as brutally as possible. But Wing Chun, for the sake of efficiency, does not have any grappling or throwing in it. I think the two systems compliment each other very well and that's one of the reasons I am interested in Aikido.

 

As for GJJ I have no desire to train a system (for more that a month or two) that advocates laying on my back in the subway hugging a crazed madman who's on top of me, while his teeth are 2 inches away from my neck and ear (the guard)...anyone else see a problem here? There's no biting in the UFC people but in the street there is!!! In my opinion GJJ is best used in sport and not suited for the street. It allows the enemy to 1. bite your ear off and 2. does not account for multiple attackers if you’re rolling around on the ground. Despite current popular opinion it is quite possible to stay on your feet in a fight – even against a grappler!

 

Jim

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-27 01:03 ]

[Bon]

As for GJJ I have no desire to train a system (for more that a month or two) that advocates laying on my back in the subway hugging a crazed madman who's on top of me, while his teeth are 2 inches away from my neck and ear (the guard)...anyone else see a problem here? There's no biting in the UFC people but in the street there is!!! In my opinion GJJ is best used in sport and not suited for the street. It allows the enemy to 1. bite your ear off and 2. does not account for multiple attackers if you’re rolling around on the ground. Despite current popular opinion it is quite possible to stay on your feet in a fight – even against a grappler!

 

Jim

 

When you're laying on your back with someone on top of you, they have the 'mount'. YOU want to get the mount, that position is favoured.

 

There's no biting in the UFC, but doesn't the Gracie's open challenge with no holds barred and remaining undefeated prove the effectiveness of the art ?

 

Isn't biting possible in akido too ? I've studied a little akido and I think BJJ is by far more affective. The chockes and locks can be applied standing up.

 

I think no matter what art you do, multiple attackers is hard to defend against. If you get taken to the ground, and a grappler will take you there if he wants to, you're going to wish you knew some BJJ. Or, if you come up against a better striker, you'd maybe like to fight on the ground. There's a lot of strikers out there that can grapple too!

 

 

[Shaolin]

Let me restate:

 

As for GJJ I have no desire to train a system (for more that a month or two) that advocates laying on my back in the subway hugging a crazed madman who's on top of me, while his teeth are 2 inches away from my neck and ear (the guard)...anyone else see a problem here?

Bon wrote:

 

If you get taken to the ground, and a grappler will take you there if he wants to, you're going to wish you knew some BJJ.

 

Sorry but this is a fallacy. I know it’s hard to accept but it’s like this: Whether standing or rolling around in the muck it is possible to control someone’s balance – this is what grapplers do, except they do it on the ground. Wing Chun can do it and so does Aikido. Both while standing up. That’s the difference. Wing Chun is designed to control balance and take the guy out by snapping his head back and chopping his neck etc. instead of using joint locks and chokes. This is because the founders of the system felt that locks and chokes take too long to apply in combat. On the street muggers rarely work alone since they are cowards, and whatever you study had better be able to deal with more than one attacker. Wing Chun is designed to take someone out in less than 5 seconds. Many of us have already found ourselves up against more than one enemy in the street and survived, including me.

Bon wrote:

 

Or, if you come up against a better striker, you'd maybe like to fight on the ground.

 

Wing Chun is not really a ‘striking art’ it is a trapping art. The reason we train trapping is so we can dominate that range as a grappler dominates his range and control balance. Also, being a trapping art Wing Chun is in its range first when going against a grappler as you will see.

 

Here’s a video of a Wing Chun guy defending against a grappler. The concepts he is using, which is not going to be clear to non Wing Chun people are Centerline attack and Facing.. In short, he is able to defend himself because he is attacking the center of gravity of the opponent and it is impossible to take someone down if you have lost your balance. This method he uses is not the only method but is commonly used. Note the way he keeps facing the opponent all the time, this is critical, as it allows him to keep his legs equidistant from the opponent and use both hands to do rapid Wing Chun punches. Ouch! By the way turn the sound up so you can hear the hits. At the end he says, "That's Wing Chun.." and he is correct.

 

http://www.fightauthority.com/movies/accion2.wmv

 

Having said that, I think there is some merit in studying basic Gracie ground work in order to pick up the basics of the ‘on your back’ scenario, after all there is such a thing as ice.

 

Jim

 

 

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-27 03:46 ]

[SBN Doug]

Not a bad video. However, though I'm not a BJJ practioner, it didn't look like the grappler got quite in the right place for a take down.

 

I can't really speak for Akido, other than what's already been stated. It seems a little light on the attacks. And, unless I'm misstaken, Segal knows a more combative style of Akido. The traditional one is much less combative.

 

My influence has come more from Hapkido. Kuk Sool Won has incorporated most of the same combative principles of Hapkido, while combining it with the striking principles similar to TKD. It doesn't sound like you need any of the striking, so I would say that Akido would probably suit your needs fine.

[Cory Reynolds]

On 2002-02-27 00:35, Shaolin wrote:

Well to me joint locks = grappling

 

Joint locks are commonly used in many different kinds of martial arts. It's a technique, not an actual form of martial arts. Grappling usually begins standing on your feet and then commonly both fighters end up on the ground. In classic Aikido, the defender always remains on their feet, only in more recent times when some jujitus restraints have been added to some styles of Aikido has this changed SLIGHTLY.