always in your Gi??

[Skeptic 2004]

well i wouldn't go around the mall in my uniform if thats what your thinking. i just think its proper to wear your belt as you train, not that it affects the ability of someone to fight. for me karate is a very spiritual thing in which i strive for perfection of the set system and the continuation of the art. i have an understanding of the chaos theory, and that doesnt really keep my mind settled. being a philosoph and a logicist does not really allow me to let the ideas of chaos theory come to rest. so i started karate to get my mind off of it and im grateful for the easing of my pain. the inability to arrive at truth is a helpless torture to me, and i found something that keeps me from the pursuit. therefore i've found that the only way to have my true life,i realized that "Putting my everyday living into karate, i have found the ideal state of existence"

Uh...okay.

It sounds like it's a crutch for your mind...which would make it a bad thing. Unless someone's breaking into your house while you're training in your backyard with your belt on, it sounds like you'll have a lot on your mind if the belt is off. Try weaning yourself off physically wearing it when you train to collect your thoughts and get to the point were you can pretend that you have your belt on all the time. When you've reached that point, it won't make a difference; wear it when you train at home or not - it'll be the same to you.

Or maybe I'm just completely and totally wrong here. *shrugs*

[kitsune_no_tama]

i wouldnt really say a crutch. its the venue of my avoidance of a destructive path. i seek knowledge, but i understand that the knowledge i seek cannot be reached within my life time, or any number of people's life times for that matter. its not that i feel mentally insecure without my belt, its that i respect them image of the belt. its like the american flag. you could understand the pledge of allegiance to the flag, but it would be wierd to pledge allegiance to a belt, right? . i treat my belt as i do out of respect for the creators of the arts, the people who have trained before me, and myself. it may seem pointless to you, but if you truly hold to your point, why do people celebrate a birthday? its only a ritual to acknowledge the day of someones birth and respect to the path of their life. the martial arts, i have found are no different. it represents the paths of the lives of millions.

[Skeptic 2004]

Edit: Can't help but notice this has strayed off-topic.

Right.

I don't want to jump into an ontological debate here, but the best tribute you could possibly give to yourself and the creators of the arts is to be a good person; have good, strong karate; and share your knowledge. Just as reverence for the flag is not a sufficient condition for being a good American, reverence for your belt is not a sufficient condition for being a good karateka. I'm pretty sure you know that, but I don't want casual readers of the forums to walk away with the wrong impression.

That and the creators of the arts didn't wear colored belts like karateka do now. The colored belt system is a little over 100 years old and was created by Jigoro Kanno to distinguish the lesser skilled students from the more skilled students so as not to pair a beginner and a senior together when they sparred and have the amatuer get thrashed. It was also an incentive to encourage his students to train harder. Shorin Ryuu and I have been beating people over the head with the facts about the belt system, and I want to make sure that casual readers understand that too.

This is not to denigrate whatever meaning you would want to ascribe to your belt. Just understand that reverence for it in and of itself is not enough.

[kitsune_no_tama]

i completely agree. i dont care what my belt COLOR is, because it only represents an acknowledgement of being exposed to the technique and skill. i respect the belt because it is the path of my life. i understand that all things are sufficient to all other things in a chain (small or large, no matter it just does lol.) so that also means a reverence for the system and its icons. just because i have a debate going on here doesnt mean its the only aspect of my spirituality and life. it merely helps represent my conviction

[Eiichi]

As the wearing of the gi is a relatively new innovation in karate, one should not let it gain too much significance in the mind."

Please explain to me how the gi "is a relatively new innovation in karate"? a version of the gi and obi used to be the traditional underwear for Okinawans and Japanese, and thats what they originally trained in. The gi has almost been around as long as the birth of traditional karate in Okinawa.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Please explain to me how the gi "is a relatively new innovation in karate"? a version of the gi and obi used to be the traditional underwear for Okinawans and Japanese, and thats what they originally trained in. The gi has almost been around as long as the birth of traditional karate in Okinawa.

Sure. "The gi is a relatively new innovation in karate." But, I suppose that isn't sufficient...

So...what date do you cite as the birth of "traditional karate"? And what do you mean by "traditional"? The term itself despite being thrown around even by everyone including myself has very little actual historical meaning.

The use of the gi in karate is essentially what Funakoshi borrowed from judo in the early 1900s, only in a lighter form. Kano Jigoro himself didn't create the standard judogi we see nowadays until 1907. Funakoshi's decision was partly based on his efforts to successfully market karate as a "budo" similar to judo and kendo and as such he adopted some of the formalities required to be accepted by the Butokukai. Another reason was it simply got rid of any class distinctions that may have been evident by what kind of clothes you wore when you trained with others. In those days, class distinction, though long abolished was still a very real part of people's attitudes and perceptions. For example, Motobu Choki always went out of his way to bully and badger Funakoshi (who he considered inferior to him in class and skill) partly because he was offended someone of his class (and skill) was chosen to represent karate's mainstream introduction to Japan.

At any rate, the sharing of martial principles and techniques on Okinawa between masters and other students was common even before what now is known as "karate" was fully introduced to the public. Any sort of particular tradition regarding uniformity of dress, particular training locations or customs and courtesies were more the personal preferences of individual teachers if they existed at all.

Before Funakoshi's decision and even after, many karate practitioners wore whatever...be it shorts, pants or work clothes. Yes, I would imagine sometimes before the formal karate gi was introduced some of them maybe wore something vaguely resembling the gi you see nowadays, but it wasn't very common. In some cases, teachers preferred students to not wear tops just so they can see the structure of the student's body easier.

Yes, the general pattern of what a gi is has been around for a long time. I never claimed it wasn't. However, saying its use in karate is a traditional aspect (there really isn't much that can be called traditional other than kata) is a bit mistaken. I'm saying they didn't care at all what you wore while you trained until recently. There was never any sort of mystique, reverence, tradition or any other sentiment attached to what they wore other than perhaps the lingering stench if it wasn't washed in recent times. In fact, much attention must always be made not only to the similarities to and influences from Japan that Okinawan martial arts and culture has in general, but also its differences.

But who knows. Maybe in twenty or thirty years everyone in MMA will soon regard their shorts and t-shirts as a hallowed part of their tradition. They may even come up with the story that everyone started with a white t-shirt but over time they turned black with sweat, blood and dirt, signifying that they truly became a master. At such a time, I can only hope someone remains historically objective enough to point out how things actually were. Sadly, it isn't the majority of cases when it comes to the same things regarding karate and "traditional karate". My ridiculous example is only to throw things into relief and show you how far things have gone in regards to what people think traditional karate actually is.

Edit:

Eiichi, I noticed in your introduction post to KF you mentioned you used to live in San Francisco but have since moved to San Jose. I live in Monterey (until the end of September at least) but train in San Francisco. If you ever wanted to swing down and have some sort of knowledge exchange (perhaps one-sided learning on my part) or wouldn't mind if I swung up by you, go ahead and pm me and maybe we could figure something out. I'm always up to learning new things.

[kenpo_fighter]

i did not mean to start a debate on the origin of the gi. it was my mistake to misplace the time period in which the "gi" came about. i was just stating that it made me feel proud to wear a uniform that is considered as sacred as my art itself. and to know that many great fighters had come before my time, wearing a uniform similar to mine. it's just my way of honoring those who'd come before me.

i feel it not only important to learn technique & applications. but, knowing & honoring ones lineage is, in my opinion, a vital part in a martial artists journey towards enlightenment. you cannot know where you're headed until you understand where you came from.

[Skeptic 2004]

Uh...ditto on EVERYTHING Shorin Ryuu said. Shorin Ryuu, I think we're going to have to start citing sources if readers don't find our information credible...

Kenpo_fighter: I think the origin thing was my bad since I think I was the first person to mention such. At any rate, I understand and acknowledge your point; knowing your roots is vital to establishing where you come from, where you are currently are, and where you are going.

I would just be wary of attaching almost seemingly religious reverence and fidelity to what is essentially clothing one wears while they're training. There's a danger in that. Karate is a path and a journey toward mental and physical development; I think spiritual aspects are best left to faith (whether it be jewish, christian, muslim, buddhist, hindu, wiccan...whatever). Karate can help with developing spirituality, but it shouldn't replace it; I've met some people where karate was their church, and their instructor was god. I love and enjoy karate, but it is not my idol nor my altar.

By the way...this is really getting off topic. I know, I'm not helping.

[kitsune_no_tama]

yeah lets get back to topic. this is going no where fast. fighting over the internet is like running in the special olympics... you can see where im going with this.

[Eiichi]

Sure. "The gi is a relatively new innovation in karate." But, I suppose that isn't sufficient...

So...what date do you cite as the birth of "traditional karate"? And what do you mean by "traditional"? The term itself despite being thrown around even by everyone including myself has very little actual historical meaning.

The use of the gi in karate is essentially what Funakoshi borrowed from judo in the early 1900s, only in a lighter form. Kano Jigoro himself didn't create the standard judogi we see nowadays until 1907.

You obviously know more about the history of karate-do than me. My original point was the karate gi has been used almost as long as Okinawan karate. I would put the birth of Okinawan or "traditional" karate at the late 1800's. My Great Uncles were wearing gi's in the early 20's in Japan. I would say the use of the gi was common in the early 1900's. Karate has been using the gi for quite some time now, and I still don't think it's a recent innovation. BTW, which dojo do you train at in San Francisco?